A defence of the reasons of the counter-poyson, for maintenance of the eldership against an aunsvvere made to them by Doctor Copequot, in a publike sermon at Pawles Crosse, vpon Psal. 84. 1584. VVherein also according to his demaunde is proued syllogisticallie for the learned, and plainlie for all men, the perpetuitie of the elders office in the church.
as a citie can not stande without Walles, no more can a Church without Discipline, yet sayeth the holy Father Maister Gualter, writing vpon the Epistle to the Corinthians:
as a City can not stand without Walls, no more can a Church without Discipline, yet Saith the holy Father Master Gualter, writing upon the Epistle to the Corinthians:
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The same Father writing vppon the Epistle vnto the Galatians, whiche is applied to Iames King of Sicile, Ego, si quis Disciplinae formam interrogat, in omnibus gentibus eandem constitui non posse existimo.
The same Father writing upon the Epistle unto the Galatians, which is applied to James King of Sicily, Ego, si quis Discipline formam Interrogat, in omnibus gentibus eandem constitui non posse existimo.
In a Catechisme printed here at London not long agoe, the Scottes Catechisme, the question is asked, What may the Eldership doe in the Church? The answere is made againe, Admitte vnto the Sacramentes, and exclude from them according to God his worde.
In a Catechism printed Here At London not long ago, the Scots Catechism, the question is asked, What may the Eldership do in the Church? The answer is made again, Admit unto the Sacraments, and exclude from them according to God his word.
And Saint Paule saith in his 5. Chap. 1. Timoth, The Elders that rule well, were worthie of double honour, especially they which labour in the worde and doctrine, we say the place is vnderstoode of the Preachers of the worde.
And Saint Paul Says in his 5. Chap. 1. Timothy, The Elders that Rule well, were worthy of double honour, especially they which labour in the word and Doctrine, we say the place is understood of the Preachers of the word.
There is one noted, that when he was about the same matter and busines that there is spokē of, he affirmeth the Testament of Reames neuer came into his hands,
There is one noted, that when he was about the same matter and business that there is spoken of, he Affirmeth the Testament of Reames never Come into his hands,
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S. Augustine he asketh the question, Qui non bene p〈 … 〉sunt ? but they, which do not labor in their calling Chrisostome saith, Bonus pastor vitam ponit pro ouibus :
S. Augustine he asks the question, Qui non bene p〈 … 〉sunt? but they, which do not labour in their calling Chrysostom Says, Bonus pastor vitam Ponit Pro ouibus:
So that here we may see that the interpreter doth not expound this place after the Church of Rome or of Reams ▪ but S. Ambrose, Chrisostome and Augustin. Here we see that the Apostle doth seeme to make twoo kindes of miinsters:
So that Here we may see that the interpreter does not expound this place After the Church of Room or of Reams ▪ but S. Ambrose, Chrysostom and Augustin. Here we see that the Apostle does seem to make twoo Kinds of miinsters:
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& why should that seme straūge to make two kindes of preachers or ministers? For my part I wishe with all my harte that al that are placed in Englande, were better then my self,
& why should that seem strange to make two Kinds of Preachers or Ministers? For my part I wish with all my heart that all that Are placed in England, were better then my self,
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Honor Widowes whiche are widowes indeed. The Apostle saith, Rom. 12.6.7. Seing then that when we haue gifte, &c. And agayne in Epist. 1. Cor. Cap. 12.28. God hath ordeined some in Churches, as firste ▪ &c. Therfore they say, there must be presbiteries in the Churche:
Honour Widows which Are Widows indeed. The Apostle Says, Rom. 12.6.7. Sing then that when we have gift, etc. And again in Epistle 1. Cor. Cap. 12.28. God hath ordained Some in Churches, as First ▪ etc. Therefore they say, there must be presbyteries in the Church:
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For the learned Father M. Gualter sayth, That there are certaine which would erect a presbiterie, they must proue they haue the same giftes as the presbiterie had then, Prophesie, working of miracles,
For the learned Father M. Gualter say, That there Are certain which would erect a presbytery, they must prove they have the same Gifts as the presbytery had then, Prophesy, working of Miracles,
There was a little booke printed in the yeare of our Lord 1558. that is called The admonition of Englande and Scotlande, you shall finde as much there.
There was a little book printed in the year of our Lord 1558. that is called The admonition of England and Scotland, you shall find as much there.
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And if it do• please you agayne to looke into the conclusions of that booke, ye shall finde that there is one whiche doeth conclude heauier against Englande, then doeth Doctor Sanders.
And if it do• please you again to look into the conclusions of that book, you shall find that there is one which doth conclude Heavier against England, then doth Doctor Sanders.
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For our wordes, our preaching and writings haue alwayes witnes•ed, that we holde the Churche for a true Churche of Christ, from which no member may separate him selfe:
For our words, our preaching and writings have always witnes•ed, that we hold the Church for a true Church of christ, from which no member may separate him self:
This wee haue declared by protestation and by writing, not onely to them, but to the most honourable Senate of her most Excellent Maiesties priuie Counsell.
This we have declared by protestation and by writing, not only to them, but to the most honourable Senate of her most Excellent Majesties privy Counsel.
Haue we not (yea when we were vniustly against all law of God and man, depriued for not subscribing) adioyned our selues to the Church in all the actions of the ministerie of the word preached, of prayer,
Have we not (yea when we were unjustly against all law of God and man, deprived for not subscribing) adjoined our selves to the Church in all the actions of the Ministry of the word preached, of prayer,
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Haue wee sought redresse by any other meanes thē by hūble supplication towards our superiours according to dutie? Thus our actions approue vs to the church.
Have we sought redress by any other means them by humble supplication towards our superiors according to duty? Thus our actions approve us to the Church.
Wil you allow his iudgement in this M. Copquot? Dare you doo it? Shall sweete and sower come out of your mouth in one sermon? Haue you not twise or thrise in this sermon made Discipline a note of the Churche, in these wordes:
Wil you allow his judgement in this M. Copquot? Dare you do it? Shall sweet and sour come out of your Mouth in one sermon? Have you not twice or thrice in this sermon made Discipline a note of the Church, in these words:
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The notes of the Church are three, the first. The word of God truly preached. The second, The right administraetion of the Sacraments. The last, True Discipline. And hauing alleadged Mat. 28.18.19.
The notes of the Church Are three, the First. The word of God truly preached. The second, The right administraetion of the Sacraments. The last, True Discipline. And having alleged Mathew 28.18.19.
you say, By whiche place of Scripture, we may easilie perceiue, that these are the true tokens of the Church, where the worde is preached, The Sacramentes truly ministred, and where is true Discipline.
you say, By which place of Scripture, we may Easily perceive, that these Are the true tokens of the Church, where the word is preached, The Sacraments truly ministered, and where is true Discipline.
how wil these wordes of Matthew, Goe teache all nations, baptisinge them that beleeue, and teache them to obserue all thinges, which I haue commaunded you, proue your Diuisions? Is it not because all men must not onely be taught and beleeue the doctrine,
how will these words of Matthew, Go teach all Nations, Baptizing them that believe, and teach them to observe all things, which I have commanded you, prove your Divisions? Is it not Because all men must not only be taught and believe the Doctrine,
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but also must be taught to obserue all constitutions, for elections, abdications, for the essentiall difference of offices for the censures and spirituall corrections, which you call true Discipline, the thirde marke? Howe then, is not this commanded Discipline certaine in nature and forme? And is it not cōmanded to al that beleeue and are baptized? What thē, shall M. Gualters sentence stand,
but also must be taught to observe all constitutions, for elections, abdications, for the essential difference of Offices for the censures and spiritual corrections, which you call true Discipline, the Third mark? Howe then, is not this commanded Discipline certain in nature and Form? And is it not commanded to all that believe and Are baptised? What them, shall M. Gualters sentence stand,
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hee saieth, That the Ministers haue no Discipline further then rebukes by worde: That there must be no Ecclesiasticall suspension from the Sacraments: No excommunication:
he Saith, That the Ministers have no Discipline further then rebukes by word: That there must be no Ecclesiastical suspension from the Sacraments: No excommunication:
Will the Bishops allowe this, that by the worde of God Ecclesiasticall Gouuernours haue no authoritie to suspende, to excommunicate ? Will our lawes, will the Articles of the Conuocation house, will the booke of ordayning Bishops, Priestes and Deacons stand with this? Thus Gualters breathe poysoneth and choketh the Bishops sweete and pure Gouuernement. Thus farre his accusation.
Will the Bishops allow this, that by the word of God Ecclesiastical Gouuernours have no Authority to suspende, to excommunicate? Will our laws, will the Articles of the Convocation house, will the book of ordaining Bishops, Priests and Deacons stand with this? Thus Gualters breathe poisoneth and choketh the Bishops sweet and pure Gouuernement. Thus Far his accusation.
which is one these worde of S. Paule in 1. Tim. 5. The Elders which rule well, are worthy of double honour, especially those which labour in the worde and doctrine.
which is one these word of S. Paul in 1. Tim. 5. The Elders which Rule well, Are worthy of double honour, especially those which labour in the word and Doctrine.
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Thou seest the question betweene vs (good Reader) wherein thou mayest thanke Maister Copquot (as we also doo) for making his meaning playne without any feare.
Thou See the question between us (good Reader) wherein thou Mayest thank Master Copquot (as we also do) for making his meaning plain without any Fear.
Well did Maister Copquot consider that it was farre from the true meaning of the Apostle, which neuer would account an ignorant Minister, vnsauerie salte, a blinde watchman, a dumme Dogge,
Well did Master Copquot Consider that it was Far from the true meaning of the Apostle, which never would account an ignorant Minister, unsavoury salt, a blind watchman, a dumb Dog,
Hee thinketh him selfe iniuried that he is charged to haue learned his aunswere of the Iesuites, which he had (he saith) from holy Fathers and Prophetes.
He Thinketh him self injuried that he is charged to have learned his answer of the Iesuites, which he had (he Says) from holy Father's and prophets.
But how is it that we heare a sounde of Prophetes, but finde the sentences onely of Fathers? Lette vs examine them notwithstanding, to see if they discharge you from being the Iesuites scholler.
But how is it that we hear a sound of prophets, but find the sentences only of Father's? Let us examine them notwithstanding, to see if they discharge you from being the Iesuites scholar.
but do they saye this place maketh two sortes of Preachers, whiche is the question? Haue you no other Fathers then these firste? Yes, Augustin, Ciprian, Ambrose, Chrisostome, these are worth the hearing, let them speak.
but do they say this place makes two sorts of Preachers, which is the question? Have you no other Father's then these First? Yes, Augustin, Cyprian, Ambrose, Chrysostom, these Are worth the hearing, let them speak.
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Augustine in giuing no more for the interpretation of these wordes, whiche rule well, then that they do it which labour in their calling, doth applie it no more to Preachers onely,
Augustine in giving no more for the Interpretation of these words, which Rule well, then that they do it which labour in their calling, does apply it no more to Preachers only,
Nay, by vsing so generall wordes in interpreting the first part of the verse, he manifestlie declareth, that hee vnderstood it was general to both sorte of Elders, both teaching and vnteaching,
Nay, by using so general words in interpreting the First part of the verse, he manifestly Declareth, that he understood it was general to both sort of Elders, both teaching and unteaching,
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The same answere may serue the words which he sayeth are Ciprians, who yet can not bee founde either so much as to alledge that place, much lesse fully to interprete it.
The same answer may serve the words which he Saith Are Cyprians, who yet can not be found either so much as to allege that place, much less Fully to interpret it.
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Or if you will haue the reading as it is newly cast in a popish moulde, Quando cum praesbiteris doctioribus, lectores diligenter probauerimus, Optatum inter lectores doctorem audientium constituimus,
Or if you will have the reading as it is newly cast in a popish mould, Quando cum praesbiteris doctioribus, Readers diligently probauerimus, Optatum inter Readers Doctorem audientium constituimus,
when with the lharneder Elders wee diligentlie tried the Readers, wee made Optatus amongst the Readers a Teacher of those who heare, it shall make yet more against you:
when with the lharneder Elders we diligently tried the Readers, we made Optatus among the Readers a Teacher of those who hear, it shall make yet more against you:
He doeth so saye, but the name of shepheard both in holy and prophane write, is cōmon to gouernours, both ciuill and ecclesiasticall, as well as to Teachers.
He doth so say, but the name of shepherd both in holy and profane writ, is Common to Governors, both civil and ecclesiastical, as well as to Teachers.
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& hos omnium maximè iubet honorari, causamque addit, dicens: Nullum enim laborē sustinent: that is, What is it to rule well? heare Christ speaking or telling it:
& hos omnium maximè iubet honorari, causamque Addit, dicens: Nullum enim laborē sustinent: that is, What is it to Rule well? hear christ speaking or telling it:
he vnderstādeth onli of gouernement (for giuing the ful sēse of it, he maketh it to be to spare none in respect of their gouernment) & so maketh with vs Elders which gouerne onely: and Elders whiche also teache.
he understands only of government (for giving the full sense of it, he makes it to be to spare none in respect of their government) & so makes with us Elders which govern only: and Elders which also teach.
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What sayeth the last? Ambrose sayeth, Presbiters .i. Elders, and those whiche gouuerne well, both in life and doctrine, deserue double honour, of those who are vnder them.
What Saith the last? Ambrose Saith, Presbyters i Elders, and those which gouuerne well, both in life and Doctrine, deserve double honour, of those who Are under them.
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when besides those which gouerne both in life & doctrine, he speaketh of Elders and Auncientes? If you wil say that ( and ) doeth not here couple diuers thinges,
when beside those which govern both in life & Doctrine, he speaks of Elders and Ancients? If you will say that (and) doth not Here couple diverse things,
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but interpret only, what reason haue you to proue it? Seeing he doeth alledge the texte expressely as we doo ▪ What goeth before, what followeth after to proue it? Nay, in the last wordes he would then haue saide.
but interpret only, what reason have you to prove it? Seeing he doth allege the text expressly as we do ▪ What Goes before, what follows After to prove it? Nay, in the last words he would then have said.
The second is manifest by his interpretation of the 1. Cor. 12. which we alledge ( Hee hath set in his Church gouernors ) of which wordes his whole interpretation (after he had spoken vppon the former wordes of the Teachers) is:
The second is manifest by his Interpretation of the 1. Cor. 12. which we allege (He hath Set in his Church Governors) of which words his Whole Interpretation (After he had spoken upon the former words of the Teachers) is:
Where, in saying, there are also, he sheweth besides the teachers, there are also rulers: and such as rule with spirituall bridles, not with the ciuill sworde.
Where, in saying, there Are also, he shows beside the Teachers, there Are also Rulers: and such as Rule with spiritual bridles, not with the civil sword.
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If the Apostle had ment to haue made two sortes of Preachers, hee should haue saide, They which rule well in worde and doctrine, are worthie of double honor, especiallie those which labor in it, or labor more th•n others:
If the Apostle had meant to have made two sorts of Preachers, he should have said, They which Rule well in word and Doctrine, Are worthy of double honour, especially those which labour in it, or labour more th•n Others:
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For by what law of interpretation, will you doo it? Will you interprete, Ruling by teaching? gouernement by doctrine? One diuers thing by another? Is that to interprete,
For by what law of Interpretation, will you do it? Will you interpret, Ruling by teaching? government by Doctrine? One diverse thing by Another? Is that to interpret,
But Copiazein to take great paynes in their office, &c. is a common dutie to all Elders, 1. Thes. 5.12. Heb. 1• 17. Ergo, Copiazein to take great paynes, can not be assigned of the Apostle as a cause of especiall honor in some sorte of preachers.
But Copiazein to take great pains in their office, etc. is a Common duty to all Elders, 1. Thebes 5.12. Hebrew 1• 17. Ergo, Copiazein to take great pains, can not be assigned of the Apostle as a cause of especial honour in Some sort of Preachers.
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Here he vnderstādeth it of those which take any paynes, and setteth them against those whiche take none So he maketh the highest degree of honor due to that which if it be not done, he saith, is worthy of no honor ▪ How cā that deserue or haue an excelencie of honor, which is cōmon to all that may haue any honor in their office? Besides this cōtradictiō which is euident in his owne words, he toucheth not the force of the obiectiō. The obiectiō is:
Here he understands it of those which take any pains, and sets them against those which take none So he makes the highest degree of honour due to that which if it be not done, he Says, is worthy of no honour ▪ How can that deserve or have an excellency of honour, which is Common to all that may have any honour in their office? Beside this contradiction which is evident in his own words, he touches not the force of the objection. The objection is:
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So that this hauing no degrees of comparison (which are manifestly expressed in S. Paules words) can not so much as resemble the sentēce of the Apostle, much lesse interpret it.
So that this having no Degrees of comparison (which Are manifestly expressed in S. Paul's words) can not so much as resemble the sentence of the Apostle, much less interpret it.
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Besides this, a figure can not stande here, because the Apostle doth specifie the general, of being ouer others, into the speciall of being ouer also in doctrine:
Beside this, a figure can not stand Here, Because the Apostle does specify the general, of being over Others, into the special of being over also in Doctrine:
After this straunge interpreting, before this new coyned meaning (carying the very stampe of the Iesuites) enter, he must (not without great blame if he look not to it) adde to the wordes of the Apostle.
After this strange interpreting, before this new coined meaning (carrying the very stamp of the Iesuites) enter, he must (not without great blame if he look not to it) add to the words of the Apostle.
if oteerwise they are worthie (as he saide before) of none. His answere followeth to the last reason out of Roma. 12.6.7. Where the Elder for gouernement onely, is made a proper member of the church, differing in his proper action from the Teacher, Exhorter, Distributer:
if oteerwise they Are worthy (as he said before) of none. His answer follows to the last reason out of Roma. 12.6.7. Where the Elder for government only, is made a proper member of the Church, differing in his proper actium from the Teacher, Exhorter, Distributer:
wherevnto he saieth, he denieth the argument, there were such then, therfore there should be such nowe Because (as M. Gualter saieth) We must first proue they haue such giftes of prophesying, doing of miracles,
whereunto he Saith, he Denieth the argument, there were such then, Therefore there should be such now Because (as M. Gualter Saith) We must First prove they have such Gifts of prophesying, doing of Miracles,
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In the second place we wil proue they are perpetuall, and then that it is vnreasonable to demande of vs, to proue that now they haue such giftes as he speaketh of.
In the second place we will prove they Are perpetual, and then that it is unreasonable to demand of us, to prove that now they have such Gifts as he speaks of.
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For vnlesse he can proue God hath repealed them, who shall cutt them off from the body? Secondly, the Apostle in the 12. to the Rom. reckoneth vpp none but perpetuall, as Teachers, Exhorters, Rulers, Distributers.
For unless he can prove God hath repealed them, who shall Cut them off from the body? Secondly, the Apostle in the 12. to the Rom. Reckoneth vpp none but perpetual, as Teachers, Exhorters, Rulers, Distributers.
& gouerne, with the actions proceeding from thē, to be perpetual, & still necessarie If thē the proper actions (as the Apostle there speaketh) of the members be perpetual, shal the members be momētarie? Doth Christ now giue doctrine, exhortation, gouernement,
& govern, with the actions proceeding from them, to be perpetual, & still necessary If them the proper actions (as the Apostle there speaks) of the members be perpetual, shall the members be momentary? Does christ now give Doctrine, exhortation, government,
howe is Christ present with his Church, to inable her to doo all he commaundeth? In the seconde place, doeth not S. Paul say he hath set gouernors in his Church.
how is christ present with his Church, to inable her to do all he commandeth? In the seconde place, doth not S. Paul say he hath Set Governors in his Church.
So for the Elders office, seeing their giftes of watchfulnes, abilitie to admonishe, and to aduise and gouerne doeth remayne, the Church is continually to cal mē fit for the same office into it,
So for the Elders office, seeing their Gifts of watchfulness, ability to admonish, and to advise and govern doth remain, the Church is continually to call men fit for the same office into it,
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These are our reasons to proue thē perpetual, which being set down for the vnlearned more grosely, we will also set thē down with some other in syllogismes, that he may the better deale with them, out of Rom. 12. No mēbers of Christes body hauing actions for the profit of the whole, may be thrust out or put to an ende by any humane authoritie.
These Are our Reasons to prove them perpetual, which being Set down for the unlearned more grossly, we will also Set them down with Some other in syllogisms, that he may the better deal with them, out of Rom. 12. No members of Christ's body having actions for the profit of the Whole, may be thrust out or put to an end by any humane Authority.
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The offices of Elders & Deacons ar such, as whose giftes of abilitie to gouerne, & distribut, & actions of distribution and gouernement, are perpetuall by their owne graunt.
The Offices of Elders & Deacons Are such, as whose Gifts of ability to govern, & distribute, & actions of distribution and government, Are perpetual by their own grant.
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Ergo, They are offices perpetual Out of the 1. Cor. 12.28. No offices whiche God hath once set in his Church, may be put to an ende by humane authoritie.
Ergo, They Are Offices perpetual Out of the 1. Cor. 12.28. No Offices which God hath once Set in his Church, may be put to an end by humane Authority.
But the offices of Church gouernors & Deacons with the offices of Apostles, workers of miracles, haue the like cause of ceasing & remaining, to Wit the wil & ordināce of God in continuing the giftes,
But the Offices of Church Governors & Deacons with the Offices of Apostles, workers of Miracles, have the like cause of ceasing & remaining, to Wit the will & Ordinance of God in Continuing the Gifts,
Whatsoeuer haue the same general cōmādement, and rules of examination, traill, ordination, abdication, honor, reprose, without speciall exemptiō for any: are alike perpetual.
Whatsoever have the same general Commandment, and rules of examination, trail, ordination, abdication, honour, reprose, without special exemption for any: Are alike perpetual.
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But the offices of teaching and vnteaching Elders and of Deacons, haue the same generall commandement, &c. 1. Ti. 5.3, 10. 1. Tim. 5.17.18, &c. Ergo, they are alike perpetuall.
But the Offices of teaching and unteaching Elders and of Deacons, have the same general Commandment, etc. 1. Ti. 5.3, 10. 1. Tim. 5.17.18, etc. Ergo, they Are alike perpetual.
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after the seconde priuat admonition, Mat. 18.17. Ergo, such an assemblie is perpetuall. Whatsoeuer offices were ordeined for ordinarie and perpetuall gouernement of the Church vnder the lawe,
After the seconde private admonition, Mathew 18.17. Ergo, such an assembly is perpetual. Whatsoever Offices were ordained for ordinary and perpetual government of the Church under the law,
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& hauing continued frō Moses to Christ, haue as the other offices of teaching & exhorting, bin newly increased and augmented by Christe to the Church vnder the Gospell: those are perpetuall:
& having continued from Moses to christ, have as the other Offices of teaching & exhorting, been newly increased and augmented by Christ to the Church under the Gospel: those Are perpetual:
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as bearing the person and sins of the whole congregation, are distinguished from the Priest & the Magistrate.) Iere. 19.1. Where the ciuill and ecclesiasticall Elders are distinguished ▪ 2. Chron. 19.8.11. Where for the matters of God, to the Priestes and teaching Leuites, are adioyned Elders, Hesr. 10.8. Where the counsell of the Elders for excommunication is ioyned, though (distinguished from it) with the counsell and decree of the Princes touching confiscation of goods. Nehem. 8.5.8. Where the Elders in gouerning the Assemblie, are distinguished from the Priestes and teachinge Leuites.
as bearing the person and Sins of the Whole congregation, Are distinguished from the Priest & the Magistrate.) Jeremiah 19.1. Where the civil and ecclesiastical Elders Are distinguished ▪ 2. Chronicles 19.8.11. Where for the matters of God, to the Priests and teaching Levites, Are adjoined Elders, Hesr. 10.8. Where the counsel of the Elders for excommunication is joined, though (distinguished from it) with the counsel and Decree of the Princes touching confiscation of goods. Nehemiah 8.5.8. Where the Elders in governing the Assembly, Are distinguished from the Priests and teaching Levites.
For counsell they are adioyned euen with the Prophetes, 2. Reg. 6.32. Out of the newe Testament the places are pregnant and many, Act. 4.5. & 6.12. & 5.21. Act. 13, 15. & 18.8.
For counsel they Are adjoined even with the prophets, 2. Reg. 6.32. Out of the new Testament the places Are pregnant and many, Act. 4.5. & 6.12. & 5.21. Act. 13, 15. & 18.8.
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That Christ cōtinued them and augmented them with giftes, as he did the offices of teaching and exhortinge, the place of Mat. 18. Tell the assembly, and if he heare no• it, lette him bee a Heathen and publicane, doth proue it:
That christ continued them and augmented them with Gifts, as he did the Offices of teaching and exhorting, the place of Mathew 18. Tell the assembly, and if he hear no• it, let him be a Heathen and publican, does prove it:
The places whiche haue proued them ordeyned in the Church, proue this point also. Lastly, them selues graunt Christe ordeyned such, only they denie them to be perpetuall.
The places which have proved them ordained in the Church, prove this point also. Lastly, them selves grant Christ ordained such, only they deny them to be perpetual.
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Nowe, if they demande humane witnes, what can they haue more cleare then that Ignatius, who (as they say, was S. Ihons Scoller) writing to seuen Churches, in euerie Epistle speaking only of such offices as were ordinarie and perpetuall, Bishopps, Elders and Deacons, doeth say (as hath bin alledged) that No Church can be without her Eldership.
Now, if they demand humane witness, what can they have more clear then that Ignatius, who (as they say, was S. John's Scoller) writing to seuen Churches, in every Epistle speaking only of such Offices as were ordinary and perpetual, Bishops, Elders and Deacons, doth say (as hath been alleged) that No Church can be without her Eldership.
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The Elders are as the Senat of God, and the hande and sinewe of the Apostles of Christ, without these the elect Church is not, no Congregation of Saintes, without these, Epist. 2. ad Tralles. Here the office is defined, as consisting onely in gouernement.
The Elders Are as the Senate of God, and the hand and sinew of the Apostles of christ, without these the elect Church is not, no Congregation of Saints, without these, Epistle 2. and Tralles. Here the office is defined, as consisting only in government.
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It is not lawfull with out a Bishop, eyther to Baptize, or to offer, or to prepare the offring, (in the Communion) or perfect the gifte or distribution,
It is not lawful with out a Bishop, either to Baptise, or to offer, or to prepare the offering, (in the Communion) or perfect the gift or distribution,
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nor yet because they might not continue, but the negligence and pride of the teachers. Nowe that wee haue proued that hee required of the perpetuitie of these offices:
nor yet Because they might not continue, but the negligence and pride of the Teachers. Now that we have proved that he required of the perpetuity of these Offices:
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because wee can not firste proue the Elders to haue such giftes of prophecying, dooing miracles, &c. But wee bidde him proue firste this strange and monstrouse assertion:
Because we can not First prove the Elders to have such Gifts of prophesying, doing Miracles, etc. But we bid him prove First this strange and monstrous assertion:
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therfore to require such necessarie for gouernement more then doctrine, is to ouerthrowe the purpose of the Apostle, which is to shew howe euery office hath his seueral & proper gift.
Therefore to require such necessary for government more then Doctrine, is to overthrown the purpose of the Apostle, which is to show how every office hath his several & proper gift.
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Secondly, if the vse of such giftes as he speaketh of, be no part of gouernemēt, what necessitie is there of thē in Elders as they are Elders? Thirdly, we demaūd of him,
Secondly, if the use of such Gifts as he speaks of, be no part of government, what necessity is there of them in Elders as they Are Elders? Thirdly, we demand of him,
If he require them in all, he must proue first that they were in al the Elders in the Apostles time, which he shall do ad graecas kalendas, that is, neuer.
If he require them in all, he must prove First that they were in all the Elders in the Apostles time, which he shall do ad graecas Kalendas, that is, never.
First, that they make themselues wiser then the Apostle, who requireth no more in the dutie of an Elder, then to be ouer the flocke with diligence, Rom. 12.5.6.
First, that they make themselves Wiser then the Apostle, who requires no more in the duty of an Elder, then to be over the flock with diligence, Rom. 12.5.6.
when he giueth the rule of his examinatiō, 1. Tim. 3. Thirdly they may by the same rule throw out teachers, seeing in this place the Apostle giueth such giftes no more to the Elders then to the teachers:
when he gives the Rule of his examination, 1. Tim. 3. Thirdly they may by the same Rule throw out Teachers, seeing in this place the Apostle gives such Gifts no more to the Elders then to the Teachers:
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Fourtly, seeing they vnderstande by Elders those who preach, and will haue none gouerning only, it remaineth that by his reason we must first proue those giftes to remayne in them, eare we can proue such to remayne.
Fourthly, seeing they understand by Elders those who preach, and will have none governing only, it remains that by his reason we must First prove those Gifts to remain in them, ear we can prove such to remain.
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Lastly, seeinge these giftes were cōmon to priuate persons, yea to women, euen to all sortes of beleeuers, we must first proue (by their reason) these giftes to remaine, eare wee can proue there be any church or faithfull men in the world.
Lastly, seeing these Gifts were Common to private Persons, yea to women, even to all sorts of believers, we must First prove (by their reason) these Gifts to remain, ear we can prove there be any Church or faithful men in the world.
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These are the detestable absurdities which followe vpon this reason of theirs, wherby the answer to it is euidēt, that the Apostle setteth down there, both offices,
These Are the detestable absurdities which follow upon this reason of theirs, whereby the answer to it is evident, that the Apostle sets down there, both Offices,
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as Apostles, Teachers, Prophetes, Elders, Deacons, and also some giftes, which were cōmon to all, as ornamentes to confirme for a time, Christian Religion:
as Apostles, Teachers, prophets, Elders, Deacons, and also Some Gifts, which were Common to all, as Ornament to confirm for a time, Christian Religion:
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To which it may be answered, that it is thought, that the other side seeke to driue out the sufficient ministerie, that they alone may reigne, pille the people af her Maiestie;
To which it may be answered, that it is Thought, that the other side seek to driven out the sufficient Ministry, that they alone may Reign, pille the people of her Majesty;
whylest they thrust our so many worthie and paynfull laborers out of the L. Vineyard, and bring in ignorant, vngodly, riotouse, idle and couetous persons, in their steede.
whilst they thrust our so many worthy and painful laborers out of the L. Vineyard, and bring in ignorant, ungodly, riotous, idle and covetous Persons, in their steed.
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Why doth he not shew who they be that so thinke of them, vpon what groundes, by what signes and tokens, by what counselles, writings, examples or deedes they haue giuen likelihood of it? If hee can neither conclude any suche matter out of the cause it self,
Why does he not show who they be that so think of them, upon what grounds, by what Signs and tokens, by what Counsels, writings, Examples or Deeds they have given likelihood of it? If he can neither conclude any such matter out of the cause it self,
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What doth it? Doeth it conteyne flat treason, that the Prince by any Ecclesiasticall power may be deposed or resisted? That the Queens most Excellent Maiestie is an heretike,
What does it? Doth it contain flat treason, that the Prince by any Ecclesiastical power may be deposed or resisted? That the Queen's most Excellent Majesty is an heretic,
or receyueth not Discipline, and thetefore must be excommunicated, and after accounted no lawfull Queene? Hath any fauouring Discipline writtē these things,
or receiveth not Discipline, and thetefore must be excommunicated, and After accounted no lawful Queen? Hath any favouring Discipline written these things,
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or the like? If he can not shewe any such thing, what is he but a Preacher of slaunders at Pawles Crosse? The booke he speaketh of, to my knowledge, I haue not seene:
or the like? If he can not show any such thing, what is he but a Preacher of slanders At Paul's Cross? The book he speaks of, to my knowledge, I have not seen:
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But be it that some one man had written without ground or reason contrarie to the scriptures, shal that or any mannes abuse, blot out the credit which so many Churches in France, Scotlande, Germanie, the lowe Countries, hath brought to it,
But be it that Some one man had written without ground or reason contrary to the Scriptures, shall that or any Man's abuse, blot out the credit which so many Churches in France, Scotland, Germany, the low Countries, hath brought to it,
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as finding it holy, peaceable, and no small pillar, both of the peace of the Church and ciuill gouernement? When we consider what inconueniences followe any matter, we must not consider what some (whiche hold the cause) would haue,
as finding it holy, peaceable, and no small pillar, both of the peace of the Church and civil government? When we Consider what inconveniences follow any matter, we must not Consider what Some (which hold the cause) would have,
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more ielouse, more politike, most ielouse ouer the Iewes of all others, because of the King which they looked for to come in worldlie glorie, could neuer yet finde out any such suspition.
more ielouse, more politic, most ielouse over the Iewes of all Others, Because of the King which they looked for to come in worldly glory, could never yet find out any such suspicion.
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The Kings and Princes, both Protestant, which haue allowed it, and popish (as in France ) which haue permitted it, they haue founde no such thing in it.
The Kings and Princes, both Protestant, which have allowed it, and popish (as in France) which have permitted it, they have found no such thing in it.
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or the Elders will or can doe that which he doth? Will the Magistrat watche ouer particular flockes, admonishe euery sinner they finde out, followe menne by spirituall meanes, till they bring them to repentance? will they them selues execute the spirituall censures of suspentiō, excommunication,
or the Elders will or can do that which he does? Will the Magistrate watch over particular flocks, admonish every sinner they find out, follow men by spiritual means, till they bring them to Repentance? will they them selves execute the spiritual censures of suspension, excommunication,
meete with no seedes of sedition? Shall they not be able to giue notice of the dispositions of al men? Shall they not finde out Iesuites and all heretikes,
meet with no seeds of sedition? Shall they not be able to give notice of the dispositions of all men? Shall they not find out Iesuites and all Heretics,
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and bring them to light? Shall not the smaler vices and sometimes foule ones also, whiche the lawe nowe meddleth little with, by this meanes bee cu•t off? In deede,
and bring them to Light? Shall not the smaller vices and sometime foul ones also, which the law now meddleth little with, by this means be cu•t off? In deed,
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