A late printed sermon against false prophets, vindicated by letter, from the causeless aspersions of Mr. Francis Cheynell. / By Jasper Mayne, D.D. the mis-understood author of it.
thus divided against it selfe, it hath verified upon it selfe the Fable of the People sowne of Serpents Teeth; where, without any knowne Cause of a Quarrell, Brother started up suddenly armed against Brother, and making the place of their Nativity the Field, and Scene of their Conflicts, every one fell by the Speare of the next, upon the turfe, and furrow which hatcht and brought him forth.
thus divided against it self, it hath verified upon it self the Fable of the People sown of Serpents Teeth; where, without any known Cause of a Quarrel, Brother started up suddenly armed against Brother, and making the place of their Nativity the Field, and Scene of their Conflicts, every one fell by the Spear of the next, upon the turf, and furrow which hatched and brought him forth.
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'Tis true, indeed, some have preacht, and others have printed, that the Superstitions of our Church were growne so high, that they could not possibly be purged but by a Civill Warre. But finding, upon my most sober and impartiall Inquiries, that these Superstitions were onely the misconceipts of some mens sicke Fancies, who called certaine sleight harmlesse peeces of Church Ceremony Superstition, I thought it a peece of Charity to them and the deluded people, to let them no longer remaine in the Case of the distracted Midi••ites in the Booke of Iudges; where, upon a Dreame told by a man to his Neighbour, and upon the sight of such inconsiderable things as lamps, and broken pitchers, every mans sword was against his fellow;
It's true, indeed, Some have preached, and Others have printed, that the Superstitions of our Church were grown so high, that they could not possibly be purged but by a Civil War. But finding, upon my most Sobrium and impartial Inquiries, that these Superstitions were only the misconceipts of Some men's sick Fancies, who called certain sleight harmless Pieces of Church Ceremony Superstition, I Thought it a piece of Charity to them and the deluded people, to let them no longer remain in the Case of the distracted Midi••ites in the Book of Judges; where, upon a Dream told by a man to his Neighbour, and upon the sighed of such inconsiderable things as lamps, and broken pitchers, every men sword was against his fellow;
and a well-order'd Host of freinds, struck with an imaginary feare, became a confused and disorder'd heape, and rout of enemies. This desire to rectifie mistakes, and withall to shew upon what slender threds of vanity their Sermons hang, whose accidentall, misguided Arguments, under certaine false colours, have strived to prove things indifferent to be unlawfull; and then, that thus by them pronounced unlawfull, they are to be extirpated by the Sword, caused me at first to preach a Sermon against False Prophets, which hath since past the Travell of a more publique Birth: wherein, what a cold Advocate I am in my pleadings for Superstition, will appeare to any, who with an unclouded understanding shall read it:
and a well-ordered Host of Friends, struck with an imaginary Fear, became a confused and disordered heap, and rout of enemies. This desire to rectify mistakes, and withal to show upon what slender threads of vanity their Sermons hang, whose accidental, misguided Arguments, under certain false colours, have strived to prove things indifferent to be unlawful; and then, that thus by them pronounced unlawful, they Are to be extirpated by the Sword, caused me At First to preach a Sermon against False prophets, which hath since passed the Travel of a more public Birth: wherein, what a cold Advocate I am in my pleadings for Superstition, will appear to any, who with an unclouded understanding shall read it:
yet M. Cheynell, (one of the Preachers sent downe by the Parliament to Oxford ) in a morning Sermon of his preacht at S. Maries Jan. 17. upon Esay. 40.27. Having directed the Doctrinall part of it against one M. Yerbury, an Independent, (who publikely in a Dispute with him held, that the Fulness of the Godhead dwells in the Saints bodily, in the same measure that it did in Christ ) not without much violence offer'd to his Text, He directed the vse and Application of it to me; whom (after some characteristicall reproaches of my person, and defamations of my Sermon ) He challenged to a publike Disputation with him.
yet M. Cheynell, (one of the Preachers sent down by the Parliament to Oxford) in a morning Sermon of his preached At S. Mary's Jan. 17. upon Isaiah. 40.27. Having directed the Doctrinal part of it against one M. Yerbury, an Independent, (who publicly in a Dispute with him held, that the Fullness of the Godhead dwells in the Saints bodily, in the same measure that it did in christ) not without much violence offered to his Text, He directed the use and Application of it to me; whom (After Some characteristical Reproaches of my person, and defamations of my Sermon) He challenged to a public Disputation with him.
To returne reproaches for reproaches, or to vindicate my selfe in the place where I was thus publikely reviled, had bin to make my selfe Second in a fault, which the whole Congregation condemned in him as the First. Besides if I could have dispens'd with my selfe for being so unchristianly revengefull,
To return Reproaches for Reproaches, or to vindicate my self in the place where I was thus publicly reviled, had been to make my self Second in a fault, which the Whole Congregation condemned in him as the First. Beside if I could have dispensed with my self for being so unchristianly revengeful,
as to remove part of the Civill Warre, which hath too long imbrued our Fields, into the Temple, and there to answer Challenges, and fight Duells from the pulpit, this licence was denyed me;
as to remove part of the Civil War, which hath too long imbrued our Fields, into the Temple, and there to answer Challenges, and fight Duels from the pulpit, this licence was denied me;
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who have for divers monthes beene compelled to be a speechless member of this silenced Vniversity. Againe, To sleepe over my infamy, and to dissemble my disgrace, had beene to beget an opinion in the mindes of those that heard him, that either I wanted a good cause, or else my good cause wants a Defender. At length (something contrary I confess, to the peaceableness of my studies, which never delighted much in those quarrelsome parts of Learning, which raise tempests between men) following the Scripture counsell, which is, to take my offending Brother aside in private, and to tell him of his fault, I resolved by the secresie of writing to wipe off those Calumnies for the future,
who have for diverse months been compelled to be a speechless member of this silenced university. Again, To sleep over my infamy, and to dissemble my disgrace, had been to beget an opinion in the minds of those that herd him, that either I wanted a good cause, or Else my good cause Wants a Defender. At length (something contrary I confess, to the peaceableness of my studies, which never delighted much in those quarrelsome parts of Learning, which raise tempests between men) following the Scripture counsel, which is, to take my offending Brother aside in private, and to tell him of his fault, I resolved by the secrecy of writing to wipe off those Calumnies for the future,
and to answer the bold Challenge for the present, which hee hurl'd at me in the Pulpit; and having first banish'd all gall, and Bitternesse from my pen, sent him this following Letter. SIR,
and to answer the bold Challenge for the present, which he hurled At me in the Pulpit; and having First banished all Gall, and Bitterness from my pen, sent him this following letter. SIR,
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But that pretending so much to Holiness, and Christianity as you doe, you should thinke the Pulpit a fit place to revile me in, would hardly enter into my beleif, were not the Congregation that heard you on Sunday morning last at S. Maryes, my cloud of Witnesses. From some of which I am informed, that you solemnly charged me with imprudence and impudence, for publishing a late Sermon against false Prophets. SIR,
But that pretending so much to Holiness, and Christianity as you do, you should think the Pulpit a fit place to revile me in, would hardly enter into my belief, were not the Congregation that herd you on Sunday morning last At S. Maryes, my cloud of Witnesses. From Some of which I am informed, that you solemnly charged me with imprudence and impudence, for publishing a late Sermon against false prophets. SIR,
yet to assure you, that I caused it to be publish'd, or consented to the printing of it, will certainly require a more infallible illumination, then, I presume, you have.
yet to assure you, that I caused it to be published, or consented to the printing of it, will Certainly require a more infallible illumination, then, I presume, you have.
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Besides, if I should grant you that 'twas printed with my consent, (which yet I shall not) yet certainely the seasonableness of it in a time where godliness is made the engine to arrive to so much unlawfull gaine, will excuse me from imprudence, though perhaps not from an unthriving, in your sense, wart of policy. And as for the impudence you charged me withall, I am confident that all they who heard you with impartiall Eares, and have read that Sermon with impartiall Eyes, have, by this time, assigned that want of modesty a place in a more capable forehead. I heare farther that having in a kinde of pleasant disdaine shuffled pipes, Surplices, pictures in Church-windowes, Liturgy,
Beside, if I should grant you that 'twas printed with my consent, (which yet I shall not) yet Certainly the seasonableness of it in a time where godliness is made the engine to arrive to so much unlawful gain, will excuse me from imprudence, though perhaps not from an unthriving, in your sense, wart of policy. And as for the impudence you charged me withal, I am confident that all they who herd you with impartial Ears, and have read that Sermon with impartial Eyes, have, by this time, assigned that want of modesty a place in a more capable forehead. I hear farther that having in a kind of pleasant disdain shuffled pipes, Surplices, pictures in Church-windows, Liturgy,
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and Prelacy together in one period, and stiled them the musty Relickes of an at-length-banisht Superstition, you were pleased out of that heape to select Images, and to call them Idolls, and then to charge me as a defender of them.
and Prelacy together in one Period, and styled them the musty Relics of an at-length-banisht Superstition, you were pleased out of that heap to select Images, and to call them Idols, and then to charge me as a defender of them.
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SIR, Had you done me but the ordinary Justice to pluck my Sermon out of your pocket, as you did the Practicall Catechisme, and had faithfully read to your Auditory what I have there said of Images, I make no question,
SIR, Had you done me but the ordinary justice to pluck my Sermon out of your pocket, as you did the Practical Catechism, and had faithfully read to your Auditory what I have there said of Images, I make no question,
but that 'tis unreasonable to banish them out of the Church as long as they stand there meerly as Ornaments of the place. From which innocent use having not hitherto digrest,
but that it's unreasonable to banish them out of the Church as long as they stand there merely as Ornament of the place. From which innocent use having not hitherto digressed,
for you to call them Idols, and then to charge me as if I had made them equall with God, by my defence of them so formallized, will I feare, endanger you in the mindes of youre Hearers, and beget an Opinion in them, that you are one of the Prophets who use to see Vanity. I heare farther, that when you had traduced me as a Defender of the fore-mentioned musty Relicts of Superstition, you said, that this was the Religion to which I profest my selfe ready to fall a sacrifice.
for you to call them Idols, and then to charge me as if I had made them equal with God, by my defence of them so formallized, will I Fear, endanger you in the minds of your Hearers, and beget an Opinion in them, that you Are one of the prophets who use to see Vanity. I hear farther, that when you had traduced me as a Defender of the forementioned musty Relicts of Superstition, you said, that this was the Religion to which I professed my self ready to fallen a sacrifice.
For if, once more, you had pluckt my Sermon out of your pocket, and had read to the Congregation that passage of it which endeavours to prove that 'tis not lawfull to propagate Religion, (how pure soever it be) by the sword, they would have heard from your mouth, as they once did from mine, that the Religion to which I there professe my self ready to fall a Sacrifice, is that defamed, true, Protestant Religion, for which the holy Fathers of our Reformation died before me.
For if, once more, you had plucked my Sermon out of your pocket, and had read to the Congregation that passage of it which endeavours to prove that it's not lawful to propagate Religion, (how pure soever it be) by the sword, they would have herd from your Mouth, as they once did from mine, that the Religion to which I there profess my self ready to fallen a Sacrifice, is that defamed, true, Protestant Religion, for which the holy Father's of our Reformation died before me.
In saying, therefore, that I professe my selfe ready to fall a sacrifice in the defence of Surplices, the Common Prayer Booke, or Church Ornaments, (things which I have alwayes held not necessary, unlesse made so, by right Authority ) you have incurred one danger more, which is, not only to be thought to see Vanity, but to be guilty of the next part of the Text. I am farther told, that to deliver your selfe from the number of the false Prophets there preacht against, you prophecyed in the Pulpit; and chose for the subject of your prediction, a thing which is possible enough for you to bring to passe;
In saying, Therefore, that I profess my self ready to fallen a sacrifice in the defence of Surplices, the Common Prayer Book, or Church Ornament, (things which I have always held not necessary, unless made so, by right authority) you have incurred one danger more, which is, not only to be Thought to see Vanity, but to be guilty of the next part of the Text. I am farther told, that to deliver your self from the number of the false prophets there preached against, you prophesied in the Pulpit; and chosen for the Subject of your prediction, a thing which is possible enough for you to bring to pass;
And can neither finde Socinianisme, or any other Poland Doctrine there which should deserve that doome. But if it must die like Bishop Ridley or Hooper, for its adhaesion to the best Religion that this Kingdome ever enjoyed, I must repeat the words of my Sermon, and tell you, that (without the fear of being thought by you a Pseudo-Martyr ) I shall account it one of the happiest passages to Heaven, to be dissolved to ashes with it in the same funerall-pile.
And can neither find Socinianism, or any other Poland Doctrine there which should deserve that doom. But if it must die like Bishop Ridley or Hooper, for its adhesion to the best Religion that this Kingdom ever enjoyed, I must repeat the words of my Sermon, and tell you, that (without the Fear of being Thought by you a Pseudo-Martyr) I shall account it one of the Happiest passages to Heaven, to be dissolved to Ashes with it in the same funeral-pile.
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Lastly, Sir, having, with all the sober detraction, which might probably beget a dislike in the mindes of your Hearers, of me and my Sermon, sufficiently defamed both, I heare you did beat up a Drumme against me in the Pulpit, and challenged me to a publike dispute with you.
Lastly, Sir, having, with all the Sobrium detraction, which might probably beget a dislike in the minds of your Hearers, of me and my Sermon, sufficiently defamed both, I hear you did beatrice up a Drum against me in the Pulpit, and challenged me to a public dispute with you.
The one is, that, if we engage our selves in a Conference of that nature, you will confine your selfe to the particulars in my Sermon which you quarrell'd at;
The one is, that, if we engage our selves in a Conference of that nature, you will confine your self to the particulars in my Sermon which you quarreled At;
and not use your strange, wilde Art of multiplying Questions upon Questions; or like another Hydra, what ever the Hercules be, make three heads spring up in the place where you finde one convincingly lopt of.
and not use your strange, wild Art of multiplying Questions upon Questions; or like Another Hydra, what ever the Hercules be, make three Heads spring up in the place where you find one convincingly lopped of.
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The other is, that, when you have made your Charge, and I my Resistance, you will consent that the debate of every question, thus disputed, may bee made publike and printed. But if by a Dispute, you meant that I should fight a Duell with you upon the same stage, and in the same Theater of men and women, before whom you,
The other is, that, when you have made your Charge, and I my Resistance, you will consent that the debate of every question, thus disputed, may be made public and printed. But if by a Dispute, you meant that I should fight a Duel with you upon the same stage, and in the same Theater of men and women, before whom you,
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and Mr. Yerbury played your prize, I doubt very much, if I should accept of your Callenge in that sense; whether all discreet men would not count this a spice of the phrenzy in me, which you complained of in the Pulpit, for being imputed to you by Him that wrote the Conference at your late Scruple-House; and say I deserved to be cured by the Discipline, and Physicke of a darke roome. To deale freely with you, Sir, I by no meanes can approve of an English Disputation in a Ʋniversity. But because you shall not loose your challenge, nor I be thought to desert the cause, which I professe to defend,
and Mr. Yerbury played your prize, I doubt very much, if I should accept of your Challenge in that sense; whither all discreet men would not count this a spice of the frenzy in me, which you complained of in the Pulpit, for being imputed to you by Him that wrote the Conference At your late Scruple-house; and say I deserved to be cured by the Discipline, and Physic of a dark room. To deal freely with you, Sir, I by no means can approve of an English Disputation in a Ʋniversity. But Because you shall not lose your challenge, nor I be Thought to desert the cause, which I profess to defend,
the Common Prayer Booke, and Prelacy; which are the particulars in my Sermon, which you called Relicts of Superstition. To one of these two offers I shall patiently expect your answer; unlesse without troubling me any further, you will let me quietly retire backe againe into the shade, from whence you have too importunately called me:
the Common Prayer Book, and Prelacy; which Are the particulars in my Sermon, which you called Relicts of Superstition. To one of these two offers I shall patiently expect your answer; unless without troubling me any further, you will let me quietly retire back again into the shade, from whence you have too importunately called me:
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Who, neuer the less, have learnt so much Charity, as to pray God to forgive you the wrong which you intended towards From my chamber this evening. Jan. 19. 1646. The Author of the Sermon against False Prophets. J. MAYNE.
Who, never the less, have learned so much Charity, as to pray God to forgive you the wrong which you intended towards From my chamber this evening. Jan. 19. 1646. The Author of the Sermon against False prophets. J. MAYNE.
To this letter (in which (as briefly as the lawes of a Letter would permit) I indeavour'd to wash out the spots, with which M. Cheynell in his Sermon strived to defile and sully mine, and withall to comply with him in any sober way of Dispute, which might befit two Ʋniversity-men ) after two dayes was returned an Answer: First, strange for the messenger's sake that brought it, which was One Jellyman (some say) a preaching Cobler; who from repairing the decayes of Ʋniversity-mens shooes was now thought fit to have a part in the conveyance of their disputes. Next,
To this Letter (in which (as briefly as the laws of a letter would permit) I endeavoured to wash out the spots, with which M. Cheynell in his Sermon strived to defile and sully mine, and withal to comply with him in any Sobrium Way of Dispute, which might befit two Ʋniversity-men) After two days was returned an Answer: First, strange for the messenger's sake that brought it, which was One Jellyman (Some say) a preaching Cobbler; who from repairing the decays of Ʋniversity-mens shoes was now Thought fit to have a part in the conveyance of their disputes. Next,
for the double Super scription of it, which without, on the side of the first paper that enclosed it, was as faire and full of Candor as the whited sepulcher in the Gospell, and was directed, To D. MAYNE AT CHRIST-CHURCH.
for the double Super scription of it, which without, on the side of the First paper that enclosed it, was as fair and full of Candor as the whited sepulcher in the Gospel, and was directed, To D. MAYNE AT CHRIST CHURCH.
By which parenthesis, it seemes M. Cheynell, thought it an errour in the Ʋniversity, to make me a Doctor. And truely (if I may be believed upon my owne report) as often as I compare my unworthiness with my degree, I am of his opinion; and thinke I am a Doctor, fit only to stand in a parenthesis; and, without any iniustice done me, to be left out of the sentence. This second Superscription was underwritten with a kind of a preamble Letter to the more inward Letter; with the lock and guard of a seale upon it; and ran thus. SIR,
By which parenthesis, it seems M. Cheynell, Thought it an error in the Ʋniversity, to make me a Doctor. And truly (if I may be believed upon my own report) as often as I compare my unworthiness with my degree, I am of his opinion; and think I am a Doctor, fit only to stand in a parenthesis; and, without any injustice done me, to be left out of the sentence. This second Superscription was underwritten with a kind of a preamble letter to the more inward letter; with the lock and guard of a seal upon it; and ran thus. SIR,
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I have sent severall times to your lodging this day to answer your challenge yesterday; if you cannot meet to morrow, let me understand your minde to night. For I have a great deale of business,
I have sent several times to your lodging this day to answer your challenge yesterday; if you cannot meet to morrow, let me understand your mind to night. For I have a great deal of business,
What kinde of meeting was here meant, or whether I (having I thanke God, the use of my understanding ) could consent to it, will appeare by the Letter it selfe; which (being an Answer to mine ) was verbatim this.
What kind of meeting was Here meant, or whither I (having I thank God, the use of my understanding) could consent to it, will appear by the letter it self; which (being an Answer to mine) was verbatim this.
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SIR, It appeares by your Letter, that you doe not understand my Text, and the learned Scribe, or Intelligencer, did not vnderstand my plaine, very plaine English Sermon. I am not at leisure to repeat every Sermon that I preach, (preaching soe often as I doe sometimes twice, and upon just occasion thrice a day) to every one that is at leisure to cavill at that which thay heard but at second hand;
SIR, It appears by your letter, that you do not understand my Text, and the learned Scribe, or Intelligencer, did not understand my plain, very plain English Sermon. I am not At leisure to repeat every Sermon that I preach, (preaching so often as I do sometime twice, and upon just occasion thrice a day) to every one that is At leisure to cavil At that which they herd but At second hand;
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All nations are less then vanity in comparison of God; to whom then will ye liken God, or what likeness will ye compare unto him? Isay. 40.17.18. The Prophet urgeth this Argument, against all manner of images which are made to represent God, who sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and stretcheth out the heavens from the 19. v. of the same chap:
All Nations Are less then vanity in comparison of God; to whom then will you liken God, or what likeness will you compare unto him? Saiah 40.17.18. The Prophet urges this Argument, against all manner of Images which Are made to represent God, who Sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and Stretcheth out the heavens from the 19. v. of the same chap:
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to the 23. ver. and he enforceth this Argument vers. 21. have yee not knowne — have ye not understood? &c. as if he had say'd, yee are ignorant sotts, irrationall, and inconsiderate men, if yee apprehend not the strength of this Argument. Now, SIR, be pleased to produce your strong reasons, and overthrow,
to the 23. ver. and he enforceth this Argument vers. 21. have ye not known — have you not understood? etc. as if he had said, ye Are ignorant sots, irrational, and inconsiderate men, if ye apprehend not the strength of this Argument. Now, SIR, be pleased to produce your strong Reasons, and overthrow,
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if you can, the Doctrine or the Corollary: Your, Intelligencer was (if not a false Prophet yet) a false Historian, when he told you that I accused you of making images equall with God. SIR, I said, that images were not like unto God;
if you can, the Doctrine or the Corollary: Your, Intelligencer was (if not a false Prophet yet) a false Historian, when he told you that I accused you of making Images equal with God. SIR, I said, that Images were not like unto God;
and thereupon wondered that you tooke upon you to pleade for the retaining of those images which have beene too often turn'd into idolls, not by the piety, but superstition of forme times. You say, that by the same reason there should be no Sun in the firmament. Whence I collect, that you will be forc'd to maintaine, that images are as necessary in the Church, as the Sun in heaven; be pleased to read the 22. page of the false Prophet.
and thereupon wondered that you took upon you to plead for the retaining of those Images which have been too often turned into Idols, not by the piety, but Superstition of Form times. You say, that by the same reason there should be no Sun in the firmament. Whence I collect, that you will be forced to maintain, that Images Are as necessary in the Church, as the Sun in heaven; be pleased to read the 22. page of the false Prophet.
Moreover, you plead for Copes, and for those parts of the Common-Prayer Booke which were borrowed from Rome pag. 21, 22. The Ʋisitors will ere long enquire,
Moreover, you plead for Copes, and for those parts of the Common prayer Book which were borrowed from Room page. 21, 22. The Ʋisitors will ere long inquire,
whether there hath not beene a Superstitious use of Copes at Christ-Church? and therfore I did not make any such enquirie in my Sermon, but as a Freind I give you and your adherents timely notice of it,
whither there hath not been a Superstitious use of Copes At Christ church? and Therefore I did not make any such enquiry in my Sermon, but as a Friend I give you and your adherents timely notice of it,
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You maintaine, that some things in the excellencies and height of the Doctrines of Christian Religion depend for their credit and evidence of their truth upon the authority of Christs miracles conveyed along in tradition and story, pag.
You maintain, that Some things in the excellencies and height of the Doctrines of Christian Religion depend for their credit and evidence of their truth upon the Authority of Christ Miracles conveyed along in tradition and story, page.
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You are offended that I spoke not distinctly concerning Prelacy, you may (if you please) try your strength, and endeavour to prove that Christ hath put the sole power of Ordination and Jurisdiction in the hand of a Prelate. 2. You may (if you can) justifie, that no Church that ever the Sun look'd upon hath been more blest with purity of Religion for the Doctrine of it,
You Are offended that I spoke not distinctly Concerning Prelacy, you may (if you please) try your strength, and endeavour to prove that christ hath put the sole power of Ordination and Jurisdiction in the hand of a Prelate. 2. You may (if you can) justify, that no Church that ever the Sun looked upon hath been more blessed with purity of Religion for the Doctrine of it,
17. if you believe this confident assertion, you may proceed and justifie all the Doctrines, which were publikely countenanced, or approved; all the superstitious practises, and prelaticall usurpations, nay, the delegation of the Prelates, usurped power to Chancellors and all the Tyranny of the high Commission, together with all the corruptions and innovations introduced into the State, Church, Ʋniversity from the yeare 1630. till 1640. by a prevailing faction, who were not the Church or Ʋniversity, but the disease, indeed the plague of both.
17. if you believe this confident assertion, you may proceed and justify all the Doctrines, which were publicly countenanced, or approved; all the superstitious practises, and prelatical usurpations, nay, the delegation of the Prelates, usurped power to Chancellors and all the Tyranny of the high Commission, together with all the corruptions and innovations introduced into the State, Church, Ʋniversity from the year 1630. till 1640. by a prevailing faction, who were not the Church or Ʋniversity, but the disease, indeed the plague of both.
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If you dare not undertake so sad a taske, you cannot justifie the 17.18.22, 23.27.35. pages of the False Prophet; you must prove that the proceedings of the Parliament are Turkish, pag. 15. 1•. that none of the Members of either House of Parli••ent (who complaine of the blemishes of the Church ) are t• ••••••med good Protestants, pag. 18. that the Reformation which they have made is 〈 ◊ 〉 vanities, pag.
If you Dare not undertake so sad a task, you cannot justify the 17.18.22, 23.27.35. pages of the False Prophet; you must prove that the proceedings of the Parliament Are Turkish, page. 15. 1•. that none of the Members of either House of Parli••ent (who complain of the blemishes of the Church) Are t• ••••••med good Protestants, page. 18. that the Reformation which they have made is 〈 ◊ 〉 vanities, page.
20. that they are guided by no other principles but such as are contrary to all rules of right judgement, either common to men or Christians, pag. 21. that the Ministers who have appeared for the Parliament, are all of them False Prophets, who have encouraged the Parliament to oppression, sacriledge, murther, and to make all names that are great and sacred, cheap and odious in the eares of the people. That the Ministers are the liars, and the Parliament-men the compliers, as appears by all your unworthy insinuations, hints, intimations, quite throughout your Scurrillous Libell, falsly called a Sermon: let any prudent man judge whether this be not your maine drift and scope, à carceribus us { que } ad metam.
20. that they Are guided by no other principles but such as Are contrary to all rules of right judgement, either Common to men or Christians, page. 21. that the Ministers who have appeared for the Parliament, Are all of them False prophets, who have encouraged the Parliament to oppression, sacrilege, murder, and to make all names that Are great and sacred, cheap and odious in the ears of the people. That the Ministers Are the liars, and the Parliament men the compliers, as appears by all your unworthy insinuations, hints, intimations, quite throughout your Scurrilous Libel, falsely called a Sermon: let any prudent man judge whither this be not your main drift and scope, à carceribus us { que } ad Metam.
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Sir, the Parliament doth not defame nor will they suppress the true Protestant Religion, and therefore if you fall in this quarrell, I said, that you must be sacrificed in the defence of Tyranny, Prelacy, Popery:
Sir, the Parliament does not defame nor will they suppress the true Protestant Religion, and Therefore if you fallen in this quarrel, I said, that you must be sacrificed in the defence of Tyranny, Prelacy, Popery:
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if you put not Religion in Copes, Images, Prelates, or Service-Booke, quorsum haec perdito? why doe you talk of being Martyr'd? say, that (if the King will give you leave) you will burne your Copes and Surplices, throw off the Bishops and Common-Prayer Booke, you'l break your windowes,
if you put not Religion in Copes, Images, Prelates, or Service-Booke, Quorsum haec perdito? why do you talk of being Martyred? say, that (if the King will give you leave) you will burn your Copes and Surplices, throw off the Bishops and Common prayer Book, You'll break your windows,
and take the Covenant, and make it evident that you are and ever will be of the Kings Religion; for you hold none of these things necessary now, (whatever you have said heretofore) unless they be made necessary by right Authority.
and take the Covenant, and make it evident that you Are and ever will be of the Kings Religion; for you hold none of these things necessary now, (whatever you have said heretofore) unless they be made necessary by right authority.
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why you did endeavour to incense an Officer of this Garrison against me, because I had refuted M. Yerburies blasphemous errors. 2. Why you did maintaine those damnable Doctrines on the last Sabbath: forgive me this injurie,
why you did endeavour to incense an Officer of this Garrison against me, Because I had refuted M. Yewberries blasphemous errors. 2. Why you did maintain those damnable Doctrines on the last Sabbath: forgive me this injury,
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Sir, I acknowledge that I doe contend for the restitution of the true Protestant Religion, and contend for the civill right which we have to exercise the true Protestant Religion: we were in manifest danger to lose our right, by the force and violence of potent Enemies, whereupon the high Court of Parliament judged it fit to repell force by forces: be pleased to shew how the Parliament doth hereby canonize the Alchoran, or declare themselves to be of the Mahumetan perswasion; the Parliament will not compell you to be happy, onely take heed that you do not compell them to make you miserable.
Sir, I acknowledge that I do contend for the restitution of the true Protestant Religion, and contend for the civil right which we have to exercise the true Protestant Religion: we were in manifest danger to loose our right, by the force and violence of potent Enemies, whereupon the high Court of Parliament judged it fit to repel force by forces: be pleased to show how the Parliament does hereby canonise the Alcoran, or declare themselves to be of the Mahometan persuasion; the Parliament will not compel you to be happy, only take heed that you do not compel them to make you miserable.
Though you renounce all Doctrines that M. Yerberie maintaines, yet I thinke you are too great a friend to the Rebels in Ireland; you contend for a Vorstian liberty, not for a liberty of conscience,
Though you renounce all Doctrines that M. herbery maintains, yet I think you Are too great a friend to the Rebels in Ireland; you contend for a Vorstian liberty, not for a liberty of conscience,
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for you desire a liberty for men that have no conscience, such as turne from being Protestants to be Infidels. There is one of M. Yerburies opinion, who saith, that the righteous are at liberty, [ he that is righteous let him be righteous still ] and the wicked are at liberty, [ he that is wicked let him be wicked still, ] but you are of a more dangerous opinion, the wicked as (as you think) are at liberty to kill and slay,
for you desire a liberty for men that have no conscience, such as turn from being Protestants to be Infidels. There is one of M. Yewberries opinion, who Says, that the righteous Are At liberty, [ he that is righteous let him be righteous still ] and the wicked Are At liberty, [ he that is wicked let him be wicked still, ] but you Are of a more dangerous opinion, the wicked as (as you think) Are At liberty to kill and slay,
but the godly are not at liberty to defend themselves by the power of the highest Court of Justice in the Kingdome from illegall and unjust oppression, violence.
but the godly Are not At liberty to defend themselves by the power of the highest Court of justice in the Kingdom from illegal and unjust oppression, violence.
I am convinced by many passages in your Sermon, especially the 15, 16, 17. pages, that you think we ought not to fight against the Rebells in Ireland, because it is part of their Religion (as it was of your brethren the Cavaliers ) to put all Roundheads (as you terme them) to the sword;
I am convinced by many passages in your Sermon, especially the 15, 16, 17. pages, that you think we ought not to fight against the Rebels in Ireland, Because it is part of their Religion (as it was of your brothers the Cavaliers) to put all Roundheads (as you term them) to the sword;
What thinke you of the War fore-told in the book of the Revelation? Sir, you abuse your betters when you talk of the Scruple-house. You are not worthy to carrie the books of those Reverend Ministers after them,
What think you of the War foretold in the book of the Revelation? Sir, you abuse your betters when you talk of the Scruple-house. You Are not worthy to carry the books of those Reverend Ministers After them,
nor could your Carfax-Sermon have ever silenced the ungifted Preachers; you would have found them gifted Disputants: if you think otherwise try one or two of them in some of their beaten points;
nor could your Carfax-Sermon have ever silenced the ungifted Preachers; you would have found them gifted Disputants: if you think otherwise try one or two of them in Some of their beaten points;
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Sir, I speake thus freely, because I was not present at the famous meeting, Novemb. 12. but I see you can cite one of your owne Prophets, Poets I should say,
Sir, I speak thus freely, Because I was not present At the famous meeting, November 12. but I see you can Cite one of your own prophets, Poets I should say,
It seems you are unwilling to come upon the stage (though that be a fitter place for you then the pulpit) to appear before a Theater of men and women: Sir, you love the stage too well, take heed you doe not love women too ill, there is a friend of yours that doth entreat you to beware of dark rooms and light women;
It seems you Are unwilling to come upon the stage (though that be a fitter place for you then the pulpit) to appear before a Theater of men and women: Sir, you love the stage too well, take heed you do not love women too ill, there is a friend of yours that does entreat you to beware of dark rooms and Light women;
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for though a great Physitian doth advise you to the use of such pleasing physick, yet the Frenchmen will assure you, that it is not wholsome for the body,
for though a great physician does Advice you to the use of such pleasing physic, yet the Frenchmen will assure you, that it is not wholesome for the body,
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You are misinformed when you say, that I did beat up my drum. No Sir, you did sound a charge and made a challenge, my acceptance of it was but the eccho which answered the 17. and 21. pages of the False Prophet. In the 17. you seem prepared to enter into dispute presently with the greatest Champion that appeares for the Parliament, Sir, one of the meanest that appears for them, takes up that Gantlet which you threw forth with so much scorn and confidence.
You Are misinformed when you say, that I did beatrice up my drum. No Sir, you did found a charge and made a challenge, my acceptance of it was but the echo which answered the 17. and 21. pages of the False Prophet. In the 17. you seem prepared to enter into dispute presently with the greatest Champion that appears for the Parliament, Sir, one of the Meanest that appears for them, Takes up that Gauntlet which you threw forth with so much scorn and confidence.
Sir, doe your best, you shall find that we have neither lost our reason nor our logick. We can distinguish between demonstration and superstition; and truly Sir,
Sir, do your best, you shall find that we have neither lost our reason nor our logic. We can distinguish between demonstration and Superstition; and truly Sir,
if you please to blot out those few places of Scripture which you have abused by misapplication and imprudent insertion of them into so prophane and wild a stamp, you may do well to turne your Libell into Verse, and then it may pass currant amongst the Balladmongers for a triobolar Ballad, and you will be ranked in the number of those who are reputed the most excellent Authors, next to them that write in Prose. If you are offended that I did not shew you so much respect,
if you please to blot out those few places of Scripture which you have abused by misapplication and imprudent insertion of them into so profane and wild a stamp, you may do well to turn your Libel into Verse, and then it may pass currant among the ballad mongers for a triobolar Ballad, and you will be ranked in the number of those who Are reputed the most excellent Authors, next to them that write in Prose. If you Are offended that I did not show you so much respect,
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Sir, if that Author did overlook your Letter, I believe he did advise you to contend onely for the lawfulness of Prelacy, because I see that is interlined, and he was present at the sad debate at Ʋxbridge; if that learned Doctor hath any thing to object against me, he knowes my mind, habet aetatem, he is able to speake for himselfe, the Oratour needs not borrow eloquence of so prophane a Poet.
Sir, if that Author did overlook your letter, I believe he did Advice you to contend only for the lawfulness of Prelacy, Because I see that is interlined, and he was present At the sad debate At Ʋxbridge; if that learned Doctor hath any thing to Object against me, he knows my mind, habet aetatem, he is able to speak for himself, the Orator needs not borrow eloquence of so profane a Poet.
First, your Sermon is English. Secondly, many of the persons whom you have abused and deceived by your printed Sermon, understand not Latine. Thirdly, you have been too much addicted to English Playes, and English Verses, and you have with a pleasant kind of ignorance shuffled them (with other Verses published in more learned languages ) in the same book printed by the Ʋniversity-Printer, and therefore I believe you are most able,
First, your Sermon is English. Secondly, many of the Persons whom you have abused and deceived by your printed Sermon, understand not Latin. Thirdly, you have been too much addicted to English Plays, and English Verses, and you have with a pleasant kind of ignorance shuffled them (with other Verses published in more learned languages) in the same book printed by the Ʋniversity-Printer, and Therefore I believe you Are most able,
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and most ingaged to dispute in English, for the disabusing & undeceiving of those whom you have seduced by a Sermon preacht and printed in English. Be pleased to performe that task to morrow at two of the clock at S. Maries Church, where your Sermon was preacht, and I will meet you;
and most engaged to dispute in English, for the disabusing & undeceiving of those whom you have seduced by a Sermon preached and printed in English. Be pleased to perform that task to morrow At two of the clock At S. Mary's Church, where your Sermon was preached, and I will meet you;
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If when the Doctor of the Chaire comes home, you please to dispute in the Divinity Schools, let us agree upon the state of the questions in controversie,
If when the Doctor of the Chair comes home, you please to dispute in the Divinity Schools, let us agree upon the state of the questions in controversy,
you have cried it up jure divino, & assured the King, that hee cannot in conscience passe the Bill against Prelacy, because it is a Government instituted by the will and appointment of Jesus Christ. Now stand your ground,
you have cried it up jure divino, & assured the King, that he cannot in conscience pass the Bill against Prelacy, Because it is a Government instituted by the will and appointment of jesus christ. Now stand your ground,
or confess your errour, acknowledge that you and your adherents have perswaded the King to destroy so many thousand of his loving and gallant subjects, that Prelacy might be established in its tyrannicall height and rigour; and now the God of heaven and Lord of hosts hath broken all your forces, you tell us that the Parliament must not pursue their victory; but we must in charity beare with those malignant, Prelaticall, and Antichristian errors, which will not consist with faith; be pleased to return such an answer as will indure the publike test and touchstone, and you shalbe rationally, nay spiritually dealt with by The Prior opponent of the false Prophet, Francis Cheynell.
or confess your error, acknowledge that you and your adherents have persuaded the King to destroy so many thousand of his loving and gallant subject's, that Prelacy might be established in its tyrannical height and rigour; and now the God of heaven and Lord of hosts hath broken all your forces, you tell us that the Parliament must not pursue their victory; but we must in charity bear with those malignant, Prelatical, and Antichristian errors, which will not consist with faith; be pleased to return such an answer as will endure the public test and touchstone, and you shall rationally, nay spiritually dealt with by The Prior opponent of the false Prophet, Francis Cheynell.
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To this letter (which (as all the world may judge) declines that part of entercourse, which obligeth one mans letter to carry some correspondence to anothers,
To this Letter (which (as all the world may judge) declines that part of intercourse, which obliges one men Letter to carry Some correspondence to another's,
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and instead of a confutation, only multiplies questions, and urgeth me to prove divers passages of my Sermon, which M. Cheynell's part was to convince ) because the superscription of it darkly, and the close of it more clearly required me to meet him at an English disputation the next day at S. Maries before the Townsmen and their wives, (very unfit moderators, certainly, in the points there to be discus'd) I for the present (to divert that meeting) return'd him this short Answer. SIR,
and instead of a confutation, only multiplies questions, and urges me to prove diverse passages of my Sermon, which M. Cheynell's part was to convince) Because the superscription of it darkly, and the close of it more clearly required me to meet him At an English disputation the next day At S. Mary's before the Townsmen and their wives, (very unfit moderators, Certainly, in the points there to be discussed) I for the present (to divert that meeting) returned him this short Answer. SIR,
THough in the Letter you sent me yesterday by (I think) Jellyman the Cobler, you have given me such a tast of your Logick as well as civility, that I have small encouragement to meddle any farther with you, (unless you will promise hereafter to write with better consequence, and less distemper ) yet, Sir,
THough in the letter you sent me yesterday by (I think) Jellyman the Cobbler, you have given me such a taste of your Logic as well as civility, that I have small encouragement to meddle any farther with you, (unless you will promise hereafter to write with better consequence, and less distemper) yet, Sir,
least you should triumph over me, as one beaten by your Arguments, not by your rudeness, I have thought fit for once to return you this answer. First, that without the danger of a dark room (as I told you before) I cannot consent to meet you at S. Maries at two a clock.
lest you should triumph over me, as one beaten by your Arguments, not by your rudeness, I have Thought fit for once to return you this answer. First, that without the danger of a dark room (as I told you before) I cannot consent to meet you At S. Mary's At two a clock.
Thirdly, that if your Syllogismes be no better then your wit, (which I perceive strived to be facete, when it adventured to say, that you feare my weapon will have more false Latine then true steele ) I doubt the Poet you contemne so much, will go equall with you in the conquest. Lastly, not being ingaged (I confess) to preach thrice a day ) I will with as much dispatch as I can, put order to your chaos, and return a fuller answer to your strange letter; wherein I know not whether you have less satisfied, or more reviled From my Chamber this morning Jan. 22. 1646. The Author of the Sermon against false Prophets, J. Mayne.
Thirdly, that if your Syllogisms be no better then your wit, (which I perceive strived to be facete, when it adventured to say, that you Fear my weapon will have more false Latin then true steel) I doubt the Poet you contemn so much, will go equal with you in the conquest. Lastly, not being engaged (I confess) to preach thrice a day) I will with as much dispatch as I can, put order to your chaos, and return a fuller answer to your strange Letter; wherein I know not whither you have less satisfied, or more reviled From my Chamber this morning Jan. 22. 1646. The Author of the Sermon against false prophets, J. Main.
This Letter might have beene lengthened with many other reasons (besides those already set down) to shew how unfit 'twas for mee to meet M. Cheynell at an English disputation at S. Maries, as M. Yerbury did.
This letter might have been lengthened with many other Reasons (beside those already Set down) to show how unfit 'twas for me to meet M. Cheynell At an English disputation At S. Mary's, as M. Yerbury did.
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As first, because the frame and carriage of the whole dispute between us, in all probability would have been as irregular and tumultuous as the other was;
As First, Because the frame and carriage of the Whole dispute between us, in all probability would have been as irregular and tumultuous as the other was;
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where, because neither of them kept themselves to the lawes of disputation, which enjoyne the Disputants to confine themselves to Syllogisme, raised from the strict rules of Mood and Figure, which admit not of extravagancy: In the judgment of all Schollers who were present, it was not a Dispute, but a wild conflict, where neither answered one another,
where, Because neither of them kept themselves to the laws of disputation, which enjoin the Disputants to confine themselves to Syllogism, raised from the strict rules of Mood and Figure, which admit not of extravagancy: In the judgement of all Scholars who were present, it was not a Dispute, but a wild conflict, where neither answered one Another,
Next, because the greatest part of the Auditory would have consisted of such a confluence of Townsmen and women, as understood good Arguments and Replies as little as they do Latine; and so the issue of this Disputation would probably have been the same with the former;
Next, Because the greatest part of the Auditory would have consisted of such a confluence of Townsmen and women, as understood good Arguments and Replies as little as they do Latin; and so the issue of this Disputation would probably have been the same with the former;
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therefore to forfeit my discretion before such an Incompetent Assembly of witnesses, with as much dispatch as one ingaged by promise could make, I returned to his Letter this fuller Answer. SIR,
Therefore to forfeit my discretion before such an Incompetent Assembly of Witnesses, with as much dispatch as one engaged by promise could make, I returned to his letter this fuller Answer. SIR,
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Among the other praises, which greater friends to the Muses then I perceive you are, have bestowed upon Virgil, he hath been called the Virgin Poet. Yet Ausonius ordering his Verses another way, hath raised one of the most loose lascivious Poems from him that I think ever wore the name of a Marriage-song. Me thinks Sir (and I doubt not but all they who shal compare them together will be of my opinion) you in your Letter have just dealt so with my Sermon; it went from my hands forth a sober Virgin, but falling into yours, it returns to me so strumpeted,
Among the other praises, which greater Friends to the Muses then I perceive you Are, have bestowed upon Virgil, he hath been called the Virgae Poet. Yet Ausonius ordering his Verses Another Way, hath raised one of the most lose lascivious Poems from him that I think ever wore the name of a Marriage-song. Me thinks Sir (and I doubt not but all they who shall compare them together will be of my opinion) you in your letter have just dealt so with my Sermon; it went from my hands forth a Sobrium Virgae, but falling into yours, it returns to me so strumpeted,
so distorted in the sense, and misapplied in the expressions, that what I preach'd a Sermon, you by translating whatever I have said of false Prophets to the Parliament, have with the dexterity of a falsification, transformed and changed into a Libell. This I do not wonder at,
so distorted in the sense, and misapplied in the expressions, that what I preached a Sermon, you by translating whatever I have said of false prophets to the Parliament, have with the dexterity of a falsification, transformed and changed into a Libel. This I do not wonder At,
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just as we see in those harmfull creatures, whose whole essence and composition is made up of sting and poyson, the juice which they suck from flowers and roses, concocts into venome and becomes poyson too.
just as we see in those harmful creatures, whose Whole essence and composition is made up of sting and poison, the juice which they suck from flowers and roses, concocts into venom and becomes poison too.
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Having said this by way of Preface to my following Reply, first, Sir, (confining my self to your method ) how you spend your morning thoughts, being impossible for me outright to know,
Having said this by Way of Preface to my following Reply, First, Sir, (confining my self to your method) how you spend your morning thoughts, being impossible for me outright to know,
unless your thoughts were either visible or you transparent; I desire you wil not think me over-curious, if I open a door upon you, and proceed by conjecture.
unless your thoughts were either visible or you transparent; I desire you will not think me overcurious, if I open a door upon you, and proceed by conjecture.
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To what passage of my Letter this refers, or why a language which I do not understand, should possess the porch & entrance to yours, I am not Oedipus enough to unriddle. But if I may guess what your morning thoughts were, when (as you confess) you did let them loose by your pen to discharge themselves upon me in a shower of rude, untheologicall, flat, downright detraction, though they were not employ'd upon a frothy subject, yet they shew that you were at that time in his distemper in the Gospel, a piece of whose raging and distraction 'twas to fome at mouth.
To what passage of my letter this refers, or why a language which I do not understand, should possess the porch & Entrance to yours, I am not Oedipus enough to unriddle. But if I may guess what your morning thoughts were, when (as you confess) you did let them lose by your pen to discharge themselves upon me in a shower of rude, untheological, flat, downright detraction, though they were not employed upon a frothy Subject, yet they show that you were At that time in his distemper in the Gospel, a piece of whose raging and distraction 'twas to foam At Mouth.
for I desire not to be an Auditor where I must hear my self libelled from the pulpit ) I shal easily grant, by the taste which you have given me in this short Conference with you of the perspicuity of your stile, and the clearness of your matter, that 't was possible enough for me not to understand it. I doe,
for I desire not to be an Auditor where I must hear my self libeled from the pulpit) I shall Easily grant, by the taste which you have given me in this short Conference with you of the perspicuity of your style, and the clearness of your matter, that iT was possible enough for me not to understand it. I do,
as might have been spent in providing your selfe to preach thrice a day, and yet not doe it so hastily, or with such a running negligence, as to be thought to preach but once a week.
as might have been spent in providing your self to preach thrice a day, and yet not do it so hastily, or with such a running negligence, as to be Thought to preach but once a Week.
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But how your Corollary should concern any thing that I have said in my Sermon contrary to your Doctrine, I cannot possibly imagine; who do there onely speak of the vanity of some of our Modern Prophets, who can see Idolatry in a Church-window: And do onely strive to prove that for people to refrain the Church (as you know who did) because some (though perhaps not of our age ) paid worship to the windowes, was a fear as unreasonable as theirs was, who refused to go to Sea, because there was a Painter in the City who limn'd shipwracks.
But how your Corollary should concern any thing that I have said in my Sermon contrary to your Doctrine, I cannot possibly imagine; who doe there only speak of the vanity of Some of our Modern prophets, who can see Idolatry in a Church window: And do only strive to prove that for people to refrain the Church (as you know who did) Because Some (though perhaps not of our age) paid worship to the windows, was a Fear as unreasonable as theirs was, who refused to go to Sea, Because there was a Painter in the city who limned Shipwrecks.
Sir, had you a minde to deal pertinently or ingennously with me, you would witness for me, that though I speak in defence of the Ornamentall use of Images, yet I in no passage of my Sermon do defend any Image or pourtraicture made of the Deity. Sir, 'tis not your saying, That no picture can be made of God,
Sir, had you a mind to deal pertinently or ingennously with me, you would witness for me, that though I speak in defence of the Ornamental use of Images, yet I in no passage of my Sermon do defend any Image or portraiture made of the Deity. Sir, it's not your saying, That no picture can be made of God,
because there is nothing like him in Heaven or Earth, or the following proofs of your letter (which I conceive to be a piece of your Sermon at St. Maries, which because I came not to it, you in charity have sent home to me ) that perswades me that any such picture is unlawfull: Nature, as well as the numerous places of Scripture, which you have quoted to prove that which I never yet denied, have long since taught me, that to make, or draw any picture, or Image of God is not onely a breach of the second Commandement, which is built upon the invisibility of his Essence, and Nature, but that the Attempt would be much more vain, then if a Painter should endeavour to limn a soul or minde, which not affording any Idea, or resemblance to his fancy to be taken by, cannot possibly by him be exprest in Colours. The Task,
Because there is nothing like him in Heaven or Earth, or the following proofs of your Letter (which I conceive to be a piece of your Sermon At Saint Mary's, which Because I Come not to it, you in charity have sent home to me) that persuades me that any such picture is unlawful: Nature, as well as the numerous places of Scripture, which you have quoted to prove that which I never yet denied, have long since taught me, that to make, or draw any picture, or Image of God is not only a breach of the second Commandment, which is built upon the invisibility of his Essence, and Nature, but that the Attempt would be much more vain, then if a Painter should endeavour to limn a soul or mind, which not affording any Idea, or resemblance to his fancy to be taken by, cannot possibly by him be expressed in Colours. The Task,
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therefore, to make any Draught or Figure of God (pray Sir, being misled by your example, do not think me superfluous in my pursuit of an Argument, to which I was not bound to reply ) is (besides the sinfulness of it) much more impossible.
Therefore, to make any Draught or Figure of God (pray Sir, being misled by your Exampl, do not think me superfluous in my pursuit of an Argument, to which I was not bound to reply) is (beside the sinfulness of it) much more impossible.
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For, First, Sir, if the School-men (which I hear you once said you had long studied to little purpose) may be Judges, He cannot be limn'd or drawn, because he is a Spirit: Therefore not capable to be represented by any gross, materiall Thing. Next, because He is Infinite; and therefore not capable to fall under Symmetry, or be circumscribed within the finite lines which stream from a Painters pencill. Thirdly,
For, First, Sir, if the Schoolmen (which I hear you once said you had long studied to little purpose) may be Judges, He cannot be limned or drawn, Because he is a Spirit: Therefore not capable to be represented by any gross, material Thing. Next, Because He is Infinite; and Therefore not capable to fallen under Symmetry, or be circumscribed within the finite lines which stream from a Painters pencil. Thirdly,
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because He is Simple, that is, (as your Schoolmen say, for you know Sir, I am but an English poet ) All in All, and All in every part: Or, in other Termes, a Thing entirely uniform, and indivisible within it self, which admits not of any false representation of it self by limbs or parts. Lastly, Sir, (because I will not be tedious,
Because He is Simple, that is, (as your Schoolmen say, for you know Sir, I am but an English poet) All in All, and All in every part: Or, in other Terms, a Thing entirely uniform, and indivisible within it self, which admits not of any false representation of it self by limbs or parts. Lastly, Sir, (Because I will not be tedious,
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and much more of him (not by the Help of a borrowed Illumination ) I could not trespasse so much against my own studies, and Conscience as to allow of any picture of God. And therefore, in this particular, challenging me, (as you impertinently do) to produce my strong reasons, and overthrow, if I can, your Doctrine, or Corollary, deduced from Esay 40.25. where God by his Prophet sayes, To whom will ye liken me, or shall I be equall saith the Holy One? You would fain have me be your Adversary in an undefensible Cause, that your conquest of me might be the easier.
and much more of him (not by the Help of a borrowed Illumination) I could not trespass so much against my own studies, and Conscience as to allow of any picture of God. And Therefore, in this particular, challenging me, (as you impertinently do) to produce my strong Reasons, and overthrow, if I can, your Doctrine, or Corollary, deduced from Isaiah 40.25. where God by his Prophet Says, To whom will you liken me, or shall I be equal Says the Holy One? You would fain have me be your Adversary in an undefensible Cause, that your conquest of me might be the Easier.
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Sir, since you deny that you said in your Sermon, that I made Images equall with God (which if you had said, my Sermon without any new confutation, would have disproved you) I am in that particular satisfied, and shall think it was,
Sir, since you deny that you said in your Sermon, that I made Images equal with God (which if you had said, my Sermon without any new confutation, would have disproved you) I am in that particular satisfied, and shall think it was,
Where you say, that Images are not like unto God, and Thereupon wonder that I took upon me to plead for the retaining of those Images which have been too often turned into Idols, not by the piety, but superstition of former times:
Where you say, that Images Are not like unto God, and Thereupon wonder that I took upon me to plead for the retaining of those Images which have been too often turned into Idols, not by the piety, but Superstition of former times:
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For here, Sir, if I would take the advantage of expression not well considered, upon you, in saying that Images are not like unto God, and thereupon that I did ill to plead for the retaining of other Images not of God, a Sophister would make the world believe, that you think all Images superstitious,
For Here, Sir, if I would take the advantage of expression not well considered, upon you, in saying that Images Are not like unto God, and thereupon that I did ill to plead for the retaining of other Images not of God, a Sophister would make the world believe, that you think all Images superstitious,
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and therefore fit to be banisht out of the Church, but onely such Images as are made of God; which would expose you to the opinion of being thought very subject to speak contradictions. But being a meer poet, Sir, whose ability, you know, lies not in making use of Aristotles Eleuchs, but in the soft, harmless composure of an Elegie or Ode, I shall deal more gently with you;
and Therefore fit to be banished out of the Church, but only such Images as Are made of God; which would expose you to the opinion of being Thought very Subject to speak contradictions. But being a mere poet, Sir, whose ability, you know, lies not in making use of Aristotle eunuchs, but in the soft, harmless composure of an Elegy or Ode, I shall deal more gently with you;
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That is, take you in the most advantagious sense which you possibly, upon your better morning thoughts can put to your words, & believe, that the fault you finde with me for the retainment of Images, is,
That is, take you in the most advantageous sense which you possibly, upon your better morning thoughts can put to your words, & believe, that the fault you find with me for the retainment of Images, is,
because by the superstition of former times they have been turn'd into Idols. Sir, if I be not deceiv'd, my Sermon, in this particular, is able to save me the labour of a reply. Where I have once for all said that which you wil never be able to controul (how poetically (that is not dully ) soever you may think it exprest) that by the same reason that Ornaments are to be turn'd out of the Church, because some out of a mis-guided devotion have adored them, we should not have a Sun, or Moon, or Starres in the firmament, but they should long since have been banisht the skies, because some of the deluded Heathen worshipt them.
Because by the Superstition of former times they have been turned into Idols. Sir, if I be not deceived, my Sermon, in this particular, is able to save me the labour of a reply. Where I have once for all said that which you will never be able to control (how poetically (that is not dully) soever you may think it expressed) that by the same reason that Ornament Are to be turned out of the Church, Because Some out of a misguided devotion have adored them, we should not have a Sun, or Moon, or Stars in the firmament, but they should long since have been banished the skies, Because Some of the deluded Heathen worshipped them.
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The little fallacy with which you think to entrap me, when you say, that hence you collect that I will be forced to maintaine that Images are as necessary in the Church,
The little fallacy with which you think to entrap me, when you say, that hence you collect that I will be forced to maintain that Images Are as necessary in the Church,
as the Sunne in the Firmament, will expire, like all other thin Sophismes, in vanity & smoke, when I have shewn the weakness and infirmity of it, which will be briefly done by repeating onely the sense of my Sermon in other words, and saying, that if Images doe agree with the Sunne, in that they have both been made Idols, though one be no necessary part of the Church, and the other be a necessary part of the building of the world, yet if for that reason wherein they agree, one must be banisht, any man that hath Logick (though he be a Poet ) may inferre, that t' will be as reasonable that the other should be banisht too.
as the Sun in the Firmament, will expire, like all other thin Sophisms, in vanity & smoke, when I have shown the weakness and infirmity of it, which will be briefly done by repeating only the sense of my Sermon in other words, and saying, that if Images do agree with the Sun, in that they have both been made Idols, though one be no necessary part of the Church, and the other be a necessary part of the building of the world, yet if for that reason wherein they agree, one must be banished, any man that hath Logic (though he be a Poet) may infer, that it will be as reasonable that the other should be banished too.
In your next Paragraph, or fardell of I know not what, you say that I plead for Copes, and for those parts of the Common-Prayer-booke which were borrowed from Rome:
In your next Paragraph, or Firkin of I know not what, you say that I plead for Copes, and for those parts of the Common-Prayer-booke which were borrowed from Rome:
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As for Copes, you know I joyne them with Surplices in my Sermon; and say that by the same reason that the false Prophets of our times would perswade the people that Surplices are unlawfull because Papists weare them, they may endeavour to perswade them, that Linnen is also unlawfull, because Papists shift; and so conclude Cleanliness to be as superstitious as Surplices or Copes. Sir, you may call this Poetry, but there is a Logick in it, which I hope doth not cease to be Logick, which you cannot resist, because 'tis not watrishly or flegmatickly exprest.
As for Copes, you know I join them with Surplices in my Sermon; and say that by the same reason that the false prophets of our times would persuade the people that Surplices Are unlawful Because Papists wear them, they may endeavour to persuade them, that Linen is also unlawful, Because Papists shift; and so conclude Cleanliness to be as superstitious as Surplices or Copes. Sir, you may call this Poetry, but there is a Logic in it, which I hope does not cease to be Logic, which you cannot resist, Because it's not watrishly or flegmatickly expressed.
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As for those parts of the Common-Prayer-booke, which I doe not say were borrowed from Rome, (as you impose upon me) but are to be found in the Rubrick of the Church: if I had said they had been borrowed from that Church, yet you have said nothing to prove, that upon this supposition 'tis Popery to use those Prayers in Ours. Foreseeing, I beleeve, that if you had offered to maintaine that what ever is in the Popish Lyturgie is Popery, that is, superstitious, and fit to be proscribed out of the Church, you would (meeting with a good Disputant, and one not addicted to Poetry ) have been compelled to confess, that the Lords Prayer, and Davids Psalmes are Popery too, (though the one were delivered by Christ, the other by one who lived long before Antichrist ) because they are bound up in the same volumne with the Masse. Sir,
As for those parts of the Common-Prayer-booke, which I do not say were borrowed from Room, (as you impose upon me) but Are to be found in the Rubric of the Church: if I had said they had been borrowed from that Church, yet you have said nothing to prove, that upon this supposition it's Popery to use those Prayers in Ours. Foreseeing, I believe, that if you had offered to maintain that what ever is in the Popish Liturgy is Popery, that is, superstitious, and fit to be proscribed out of the Church, you would (meeting with a good Disputant, and one not addicted to Poetry) have been compelled to confess, that the lords Prayer, and Davids Psalms Are Popery too, (though the one were Delivered by christ, the other by one who lived long before Antichrist) Because they Are bound up in the same volume with the Mass. Sir,
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But here, Sir, though I need not take the paines to confute the Nothings you have said against me, in this particular, yet whenever you shal call upon me to make good my undertaking, I doe promise to make it evident to you, that all the ancient parts of the Common-Prayer-booke, which I plead for, I doe not plead for because they are used by the Church of Rome, but because they were part of the Lyturgie of those Churches which were thought primitively pure, and not superstitious, and were in the world long before Popery, or Antichrist was borne.
But Here, Sir, though I need not take the pains to confute the Nothings you have said against me, in this particular, yet whenever you shall call upon me to make good my undertaking, I do promise to make it evident to you, that all the ancient parts of the Common-Prayer-booke, which I plead for, I do not plead for Because they Are used by the Church of Room, but Because they were part of the Liturgy of those Churches which were Thought primitively pure, and not superstitious, and were in the world long before Popery, or Antichrist was born.
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I must, therefore, for ought you have yet said to alter my opinion, still stand to my former conclusion; which is, that by the same reason that either the whole, or any part of our Cōmon-Prayer-Book is to be turned out of the Church, because in some things it agrees with the Lyturgie of the Church of Rome, Italy, and Rome it self is to be turned out of the world, (& so a new Map to be made of it where these places are not) because they are the Popes Territories, and lye under his Jurisdiction. Lastly, Sir,
I must, Therefore, for ought you have yet said to altar my opinion, still stand to my former conclusion; which is, that by the same reason that either the Whole, or any part of our Cōmon-Prayer-Book is to be turned out of the Church, Because in Some things it agrees with the Liturgy of the Church of Room, Italy, and Room it self is to be turned out of the world, (& so a new Map to be made of it where these places Are not) Because they Are the Popes Territories, and lie under his Jurisdiction. Lastly, Sir,
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as for the Visitors you threaten both me and Christ-Church withall, (of whom some report that you are one ) when you come to execute your Commission, so you will not urge it as a Topicke to convince my understanding, but as a Delegacy of power to examine my studies, life, and manners, I shall bring all the submission with me which can be expected from one subject to the tryal. and examination of such a power. Being withall very confident, that when that time comes, however you may perhaps finde an old Cope or two in our Colledge, yet you will never bring Logick enough with you to prove, that they are either Idolatrous, or have been put to a superstitious use.
as for the Visitors you threaten both me and Christ church withal, (of whom Some report that you Are one) when you come to execute your Commission, so you will not urge it as a Topic to convince my understanding, but as a Delegacy of power to examine my studies, life, and manners, I shall bring all the submission with me which can be expected from one Subject to the trial. and examination of such a power. Being withal very confident, that when that time comes, however you may perhaps find an old Cope or two in our College, yet you will never bring Logic enough with you to prove, that they Are either Idolatrous, or have been put to a superstitious use.
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And therefore, Sir, in this particular you have lost your friendly counsell, there being no need at all that we should against that time study for an Answer.
And Therefore, Sir, in this particular you have lost your friendly counsel, there being no need At all that we should against that time study for an Answer.
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and Height of the Doctrines of Christian Religion depend for their credit, and the Evidence of their Truth, upon the Authority of Christs Miracles convey'd along in Tradition, and Story;
and Height of the Doctrines of Christian Religion depend for their credit, and the Evidence of their Truth, upon the authority of Christ Miracles conveyed along in Tradition, and Story;
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Sir, though I have alwayes lookt upon the Scriptures of the Old Testament and the New, as two glorious lampes, which to all eyes (that have not lost the use of seeing, by being kept sequestred from the sunne too long in the darke ) mutually give light to one another, so that a vigilant Reader, by comparing Prophecies with their Accomplishments, will have very great reason to beleeve that both are true, yet because this amounts but to the discourses and perswasions of a single mans reason, if I prefer Tradition, which is the constant, universall consent of all Ages, as a fuller medium to prove doctrines by which are hardly otherwise demonstrable, doe I any more, I pray,
Sir, though I have always looked upon the Scriptures of the Old Testament and the New, as two glorious lamps, which to all eyes (that have not lost the use of seeing, by being kept sequestered from the sun too long in the dark) mutually give Light to one Another, so that a vigilant Reader, by comparing Prophecies with their Accomplishments, will have very great reason to believe that both Are true, yet Because this amounts but to the discourses and persuasions of a single men reason, if I prefer Tradition, which is the constant, universal consent of all Ages, as a fuller medium to prove doctrines by which Are hardly otherwise demonstrable, do I any more, I pray,
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Your next Paragraph, is perfectly the Hydra with repullulating Heads which I warned you of in my first Letter; And multiplies so many causeless questions as make it nothing but a heape, partly of such doubts, partly of untruths, as would make it one of Hercules labours to examine them.
Your next Paragraph, is perfectly the Hydra with repullulating Heads which I warned you of in my First letter; And multiplies so many causeless questions as make it nothing but a heap, partly of such doubts, partly of untruths, as would make it one of Hercules labours to examine them.
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yet the practice and opinion of the Church for 1500 yeeres ought to be of too great Authority with you to make this a scruple. Knowing that no Church in the world thought otherwise, till the Presbyterian Modell crept forth of Calvins fancie; nor any good Protestant in the Church of England, till such as you recalled Aërius from his grave, and Dust to oppose Bishops. Next, you bid me justifie, that no Church that ever the sunne lookt upon hath beene more blest with purity of Religion for the Doctrines of it,
yet the practice and opinion of the Church for 1500 Years ought to be of too great authority with you to make this a scruple. Knowing that no Church in the world Thought otherwise, till the Presbyterian Model crept forth of Calvin's fancy; nor any good Protestant in the Church of England, till such as you Recalled Aërius from his grave, and Dust to oppose Bishops. Next, you bid me justify, that no Church that ever the sun looked upon hath been more blessed with purity of Religion for the Doctrines of it,
I am not so extravagant as to say, that no Church that ever the Sunne lookt upon, but that the Sun in all his heavenly course for so many, many yeeres, that is, (in my sense ) for many Ages, saw not a purer Church then ours was, both for the Doctrines, and Discipline of it.
I am not so extravagant as to say, that no Church that ever the Sun looked upon, but that the Sun in all his heavenly course for so many, many Years, that is, (in my sense) for many Ages, saw not a Purer Church then ours was, both for the Doctrines, and Discipline of it.
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Against this you wildly object, I know not what Doctrines publiquely countenanced, but tell me not what these Doctrines were, speake of certaine superstitious practices, and Prelaticall usurpations, but doe not prove them to be either superstitious, or usurpt; quarrell with the Delegation of Bishops power to Chancellors, then proceed to the tyrannie of the High-Commission-Court, and at last conclude with I know not what Imaginary corruptions and Innovations introduced into the State, Church, and Ʋniversity.
Against this you wildly Object, I know not what Doctrines publicly countenanced, but tell me not what these Doctrines were, speak of certain superstitious practices, and Prelatical usurpations, but do not prove them to be either superstitious, or usurped; quarrel with the Delegation of Bishops power to Chancellors, then proceed to the tyranny of the High-Commission-Court, and At last conclude with I know not what Imaginary corruptions and Innovations introduced into the State, Church, and Ʋniversity.
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Sir, if I should grant this long-winded Charge of yours to be true, (as truly I think it is onely a seeing of vanity ) yet my confident Assertion is not hereby enfeebled I hope,
Sir, if I should grant this long-winded Charge of yours to be true, (as truly I think it is only a seeing of vanity) yet my confident Assertion is not hereby enfeebled I hope,
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when I spoke of the purity of our Church, you did not think I freed it from all blemishes or spots. The Primitive Church it selfe had some in it who broacht strange doctrines; Saint John had not else written his Gospell against the Gnosticks, nor Saint Paul his Epistle to the Galatians against those that held the necessity of Circumcision. The next Ages of the Church have not been more distinguisht by their Martyrs, then Heretiques; yet the Primitive Church ceased not to be Apostolically pure, because it had a Cerinthus, or Nicolaitans in it;
when I spoke of the purity of our Church, you did not think I freed it from all blemishes or spots. The Primitive Church it self had Some in it who broached strange doctrines; Saint John had not Else written his Gospel against the Gnostics, nor Saint Paul his Epistle to the Galatians against those that held the necessity of Circumcision. The next Ages of the Church have not been more distinguished by their Martyrs, then Heretics; yet the Primitive Church ceased not to be Apostolically pure, Because it had a Cerinthus, or Nicolaitans in it;
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nor the succeeding Churches to be the Spouse of Christ, because one brought forth an Apelles, another a Marcion, a third a Nestorius, a fourth an Eutiches, a fift an Arius. Sir,
nor the succeeding Churches to be the Spouse of christ, Because one brought forth an Apelles, Another a Marcion, a third a Nestorius, a fourth an Eutichius, a fift an Arius. Sir,
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as long as the best Church in the world consists of men not infallible there will be errors. But then you must not charge the Heterodox opinions or Doctrines of particular men, though, perhaps, countenanced by some in publique authority upon the Church. Besides, Sir, every Innovation is not necessarily a Corruption, unless it displace, or lay an Ostracisme upon some other thing more worthy and better then it selfe. You your selfe say, that the corruptions introduced were brought in by a prevailing faction, who were not the Church.
as long as the best Church in the world consists of men not infallible there will be errors. But then you must not charge the Heterodox opinions or Doctrines of particular men, though, perhaps, countenanced by Some in public Authority upon the Church. Beside, Sir, every Innovation is not necessarily a Corruption, unless it displace, or lay an Ostracism upon Some other thing more worthy and better then it self. You your self say, that the corruptions introduced were brought in by a prevailing faction, who were not the Church.
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This, then, being so, me thinks, Sir, you in your pursuit of Reformation, by making Root & Branch your Rule of proceeding, have beene more severe then the lawes of right Reason will allow you.
This, then, being so, me thinks, Sir, you in your pursuit of Reformation, by making Root & Branch your Rule of proceeding, have been more severe then the laws of right Reason will allow you.
If there were such a tyrannie as you speake of streaming it selfe from the High Commission Court, why could not the tyrannie be supprest, without the abolishment of the Court? Or if there were such a thing as Prelaticall usurpation, why could not the usurpations be taken away,
If there were such a tyranny as you speak of streaming it self from the High Commission Court, why could not the tyranny be suppressed, without the abolishment of the Court? Or if there were such a thing as Prelatical usurpation, why could not the usurpations be taken away,
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and Episcopacie left to stand? Sir, if you be Logician enough to be able to distinguish betweene the faults of persons and the sacredness of functions, you cannot but pronounce with me, that to extirpate an order of the Church, ancient as the Christian Church it selfe, and made venerable by the never-interrupted Reception of it in all the Ages of the Church but ours, for the irregular carriage of a Prelate or two, (if any such have beene among us) is a course like theirs, who thought there was no way left to reforme drunkenness in their State, but utterly to root up, and extirpate, and banish Vines.
and Episcopacy left to stand? Sir, if you be Logician enough to be able to distinguish between the Faults of Persons and the sacredness of functions, you cannot but pronounce with me, that to extirpate an order of the Church, ancient as the Christian Church it self, and made venerable by the never-interrupted Reception of it in all the Ages of the Church but ours, for the irregular carriage of a Prelate or two, (if any such have been among us) is a course like theirs, who Thought there was no Way left to reform Drunkenness in their State, but utterly to root up, and extirpate, and banish Vines.
which is, that because you finde it hard for you to confute my Sermon by your Arguments, you will endeavour to make the Parliament my Adversary, who, you thinke, are able to confute it by their power: And bid me prove that the proceedings of the Parliament are Turkish.
which is, that Because you find it hard for you to confute my Sermon by your Arguments, you will endeavour to make the Parliament my Adversary, who, you think, Are able to confute it by their power: And bid me prove that the proceedings of the Parliament Are Turkish.
that is, you, a Politique Would-be the second, sheltring your self under a capacious Tortoise-shell. Why, Sir, can you perswade your selfe that the great Councell of the Kingdome, by whom you are imployed,
that is, you, a Politic Would-be the second, sheltering your self under a capacious Tortoise-shell. Why, Sir, can you persuade your self that the great Council of the Kingdom, by whom you Are employed,
if they will vouchsafe to reade my Sermon, will not presently discerne your Art? And withall perceive, that though the Text, upon which I, out of the Integrity of my soule, preacht that Sermon, stick as close to False Prophets, as the Centaures shirt did to Hercules, and set them a raging, yet that they having never Parliamentarily profest to propagate Religion by their speare, can no way be concerned,
if they will vouchsafe to read my Sermon, will not presently discern your Art? And withal perceive, that though the Text, upon which I, out of the Integrity of my soul, preached that Sermon, stick as close to False prophets, as the Centaur's shirt did to Hercules, and Set them a raging, yet that they having never Parliamentarily professed to propagate Religion by their spear, can no Way be concerned,
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Sir, I am so confident of the wisdome of that Honourable Assembly, of my owne innocent meaning, and of your guilt, (who have beene one of those Turkish Prophets, (and in your Letter to me still are) who have preacht that piece of the Alchoran for good doctrine ) that for answer to all your slye, impotently-malicious mis-applications and shiftings off that which I have said onely of such as your selfe to the Parliament, I shall onely appeale to my Sermon. And by that, if you please to undertake the Devils part, and be my Accuser, shall be content to stand or fall. In the meane time, Sir, I must repeat what I said before, that if it be read,
Sir, I am so confident of the Wisdom of that Honourable Assembly, of my own innocent meaning, and of your guilt, (who have been one of those Turkish prophets, (and in your letter to me still Are) who have preached that piece of the Alcoran for good Doctrine) that for answer to all your sly, impotently-malicious misapplications and shiftings off that which I have said only of such as your self to the Parliament, I shall only appeal to my Sermon. And by that, if you please to undertake the Devils part, and be my Accuser, shall be content to stand or fallen. In the mean time, Sir, I must repeat what I said before, that if it be read,
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or lookt on through those refractions, with which you have mis-shap'd, and crookt it, I shall consent to what you say in the end of your filthy Paragraph; That 'twas once a Sermon, but you almost à Carceribus us { que } ad metam have made it a Libell.
or looked on through those refractions, with which you have mishap, and crooked it, I shall consent to what you say in the end of your filthy Paragraph; That 'twas once a Sermon, but you almost à Carceribus us { que } ad Metam have made it a Libel.
To the first, I reply, that it had been as unnaturall for me to be borne in a Surplice, or Cope, as for you to come into the world, with a little Geneva set-ruffe about your neck.
To the First, I reply, that it had been as unnatural for me to be born in a Surplice, or Cope, as for you to come into the world, with a little Geneva set-ruffe about your neck.
Next, Sir, for your sharpe distinction, I hope, though the Muses be your Step-dames, yet you thinke not the figures of Rhetorick to be so superstitious, that it shall be Popery in me, to make use of a Metonymy, and to express my selfe by the Adjunct, when I mean the place, and Country. I grant, Sir, that men are not borne, but re-born Christians; yet 'twill be no great Errour in speech for a man to say he is born in Christianity, if he be a Christian, and were born in the place where Christianity is establish'd. Sir, I doubt you begin to think secular learning to be a profane thing; And that you are bound to persecute Tropes out of Expression, as you have Liturgy out of the Church. If you do, Sir, we shall in time, (if we proceed in this conflict ) fulfill a peece of one of Saint Paul's Epistles between us;
Next, Sir, for your sharp distinction, I hope, though the Muses be your Stepdames, yet you think not the figures of Rhetoric to be so superstitious, that it shall be Popery in me, to make use of a Metonymy, and to express my self by the Adjunct, when I mean the place, and Country. I grant, Sir, that men Are not born, but reborn Christians; yet it'll be no great Error in speech for a man to say he is born in Christianity, if he be a Christian, and were born in the place where Christianity is established. Sir, I doubt you begin to think secular learning to be a profane thing; And that you Are bound to persecute Tropes out of Expression, as you have Liturgy out of the Church. If you do, Sir, we shall in time, (if we proceed in this conflict) fulfil a piece of one of Saint Paul's Epistles between us;
as of late years hath left it doubtfull in the minds of the people what the true Protestant Religion is, you let not in Popery at that Gate, by which they strive to shut it out.
as of late Years hath left it doubtful in the minds of the people what the true Protestant Religion is, you let not in Popery At that Gate, by which they strive to shut it out.
If Queen Maries dayes do once more break in upon us through the sluce which we open to them by our unsetledness, and Distractions, and if I then fall a sacrifice in defence of the same Religion for which I now contend, I hope you then will think your self confuted; And no longer beleeve that I am such an ill Judge of Religions, or so profusely prodigall of my life, that I would make it a Holocaust, or Oblation, either to Tyranny, or Popery.
If Queen Mary's days do once more break in upon us through the sluice which we open to them by our unsettledness, and Distractions, and if I then fallen a sacrifice in defence of the same Religion for which I now contend, I hope you then will think your self confuted; And no longer believe that I am such an ill Judge of Religions, or so profusely prodigal of my life, that I would make it a Holocaust, or Oblation, either to Tyranny, or Popery.
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In short, Sir, let the King and Parliament agree to burn Copes, and Surplices, to throw away the Common-Prayer-Book, or to break our Windows, I shall not place so much Religion in them,
In short, Sir, let the King and Parliament agree to burn Copes, and Surplices, to throw away the Common prayer book, or to break our Windows, I shall not place so much Religion in them,
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as not to think them alterable, and this done by Right Authority. But as for the Covenant, 'tis a pill, Sir, which no secular interest can so sweeten to me, that I should think my self obliged to be so far of any mans Religion, as to swallow both parts of a contradiction in an Oath,
as not to think them alterable, and this done by Right authority. But as for the Covenant, it's a pill, Sir, which no secular Interest can so sweeten to me, that I should think my self obliged to be so Far of any men Religion, as to swallow both parts of a contradiction in an Oath,
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Your promise that my Sermon should be first confuted before it be burnt, gives me hope it will be longer liv'd, then upon the first report I thought it would.
Your promise that my Sermon should be First confuted before it be burned, gives me hope it will be longer lived, then upon the First report I Thought it would.
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But then I wonder you should passe that sentence on it, and choose Paraeus for your precedent. I must confesse to you Sir, had I written so destructively of Parliaments as He did of Kings, I should think it no injustice from that High Court, if they should doom me the Author to be sacrificed on the same Altar with my Book. But having (upon the highest warrant that can possibly lend courage to a good action ) directed it wholy against False Prophets, and no where reflected upon the Members of either House, but where I maintain it to be unlawfull to speak evill of dignities, to condemn it to the flame for speaking such Truths, as I could not leave unspoken, unlesse I had prevaricated with the Scripture, will be so sar from the reproach of a punishment, that 'twill encrease the esteem and value of it from its sufferings; and make it ascend to heaven as the Angel in the Book of Judges did, in the breath, and ayre, and perfume of an acceptable sacrifice to God.
But then I wonder you should pass that sentence on it, and choose Pareus for your precedent. I must confess to you Sir, had I written so destructively of Parliaments as He did of Kings, I should think it no injustice from that High Court, if they should doom me the Author to be sacrificed on the same Altar with my Book. But having (upon the highest warrant that can possibly lend courage to a good actium) directed it wholly against False prophets, and no where reflected upon the Members of either House, but where I maintain it to be unlawful to speak evil of dignities, to condemn it to the flame for speaking such Truths, as I could not leave unspoken, unless I had prevaricated with the Scripture, will be so sar from the reproach of a punishment, that it'll increase the esteem and valve of it from its sufferings; and make it ascend to heaven as the Angel in the Book of Judges did, in the breath, and air, and perfume of an acceptable sacrifice to God.
Sir, As your she-Disciple did very much mis-inform you, if she told you that I endeavoured to incense an Officer of this Garrison against you, so 'twas one Errour more in her (as upon just occasion I shall demonstrate to you) to tell you that I vented damnable Doctrines in her Company, which I was not able to maintain.
Sir, As your she-Disciple did very much misinform you, if she told you that I endeavoured to incense an Officer of this Garrison against you, so 'twas one Error more in her (as upon just occasion I shall demonstrate to you) to tell you that I vented damnable Doctrines in her Company, which I was not able to maintain.
She is my Gentle Adversary, and I desire she should know, that as I desire not to fight serious duells with that unequall Sex, so when ever she will again provoke me to a Dispute (so it be not at Saint Maries, for S. Paul forbids women to argue in the Church ) she shall return with prizes, and I will confess my self conquer'd. In the mean time, Sir, whither she came to you, or you went to her, Her Sex puts me in mind of some false Teachers, not mention'd in my Sermon, but branded by Saint Paul, * for creeping into houses, and leading captive silly Women. If your Intelligencer be one of these (as I shrewdly suspect she is) I should be sorry for those Friends sake in whose Acquaintance we both meet, that she should be lyable to the Character of such silly women in the next verse; where 'tis said, That they were ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the Truth.
She is my Gentle Adversary, and I desire she should know, that as I desire not to fight serious duels with that unequal Sex, so when ever she will again provoke me to a Dispute (so it be not At Saint Mary's, for S. Paul forbids women to argue in the Church) she shall return with prizes, and I will confess my self conquered. In the mean time, Sir, whither she Come to you, or you went to her, Her Sex puts me in mind of Some false Teachers, not mentioned in my Sermon, but branded by Saint Paul, * for creeping into houses, and leading captive silly Women. If your Intelligencer be one of these (as I shrewdly suspect she is) I should be sorry for those Friends sake in whose Acquaintance we both meet, that she should be liable to the Character of such silly women in the next verse; where it's said, That they were ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the Truth.
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You proceed, and say, That you were in manifest Danger to loose your Right to the Exercise of the Protestant Religion, whereupon the High Court of Parliament thought it fit to repell force by force.
You proceed, and say, That you were in manifest Danger to lose your Right to the Exercise of the Protestant Religion, whereupon the High Court of Parliament Thought it fit to repel force by force.
Sir, do not entertain me with your own false fears, and jealousies; but demonstrate to me that the King (for Him I presume you mean) meant to extirpate the true Protestant Religion by the sword, and to plant Popery in its stead,
Sir, do not entertain me with your own false fears, and jealousies; but demonstrate to me that the King (for Him I presume you mean) meant to extirpate the true Protestant Religion by the sword, and to plant Popery in its stead,
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And you shall not more falsely charge me that I make the Parliament by such a Resistance to Denizon the Alchoran, then I shall truely pronounce the Kings party, in fighting for him to that end, guilty of a Mahumetan perswasion. In saying this, you exceedingly mistake me if you think I contend for a Vorstian Liberty, or am hereby a Friend to the Rebels in Ireland.
And you shall not more falsely charge me that I make the Parliament by such a Resistance to Denizen the Alcoran, then I shall truly pronounce the Kings party, in fighting for him to that end, guilty of a Mahometan persuasion. In saying this, you exceedingly mistake me if you think I contend for a Vorstian Liberty, or am hereby a Friend to the Rebels in Ireland.
if they will not otherway return to their Alleagance, that they be reduced by force. There is a right to their subjection pursued by such a War, which makes all Armes warrantable which are imploy'd for the recovery of such a losse. But to think, that as they are Papists, nay, (Sir, I shall not shrink from my word) if they were outright Infidels, that the Protestant Religion is to be imposed upon them by force, is to make our selves guilty of all the hard Censures which have past upon the Spaniards Conquest of the Indians, where their Silver Mines were the true cause,
if they will not otherways return to their Allegiance, that they be reduced by force. There is a right to their subjection pursued by such a War, which makes all Arms warrantable which Are employed for the recovery of such a loss. But to think, that as they Are Papists, nay, (Sir, I shall not shrink from my word) if they were outright Infidels, that the Protestant Religion is to be imposed upon them by force, is to make our selves guilty of all the hard Censures which have passed upon the Spanish Conquest of the Indians, where their Silver Mines were the true cause,
and find it as mysterious, as the pale or black Horse ) for ought you have said in disproof of it, I find not my self tempted to desert my Opinion: which is, That to come into the field with an Armed Gospel, is not the way chosen by Christ to make Proselytes.
and find it as mysterious, as the pale or black Horse) for ought you have said in disproof of it, I find not my self tempted to desert my Opinion: which is, That to come into the field with an Armed Gospel, is not the Way chosen by christ to make Proselytes.
And, therefore Sir, I will not so much distrust the Wisdome, or Justice of the Parliament, that upon your bare Assertion, they will make me miserable, because I maintain that they cannot warrantably compell any man to be happy.
And, Therefore Sir, I will not so much distrust the Wisdom, or justice of the Parliament, that upon your bore Assertion, they will make me miserable, Because I maintain that they cannot warrantably compel any man to be happy.
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Why the bare mention of your Scruple-house should put you into such a fit of ill language, as to pronounce me unworthy to carry the Books of the Reverend Divines after them, who met there to heal Doubts, or why my Carfax-Sermon should contribute to the raging of that fit, I cannot reasonably imagine.
Why the bore mention of your Scruple-house should put you into such a fit of ill language, as to pronounce me unworthy to carry the Books of the Reverend Divines After them, who met there to heal Doubts, or why my Carfax-Sermon should contribute to the raging of that fit, I cannot reasonably imagine.
Sir, I have no mind to fight many Duells at Once; nor, (having received a challenge from no other but your self ) to ingage my self with them by whom I have not been provok't.
Sir, I have no mind to fight many Duels At Once; nor, (having received a challenge from no other but your self) to engage my self with them by whom I have not been provoked.
But, certainly, Sir, if the Report which was made to me (by some who brought both their understandings as well as Eares with t em to the famous meeting November 12.) be true, there was nothing so demonstratively by them either objected, or replyed as might incourage them, or their Hearers, to beleeve this peece of Popery, that they are unerring, and infallible in the chair: pray, Sir, do not think my Famous pride, or self-conceitedness (which you say hath provoked you to break your chaines, and to let loose your pen, that you might whip me into Humility ) hath prompted me to say this.
But, Certainly, Sir, if the Report which was made to me (by Some who brought both their understandings as well as Ears with tO em to the famous meeting November 12.) be true, there was nothing so demonstratively by them either objected, or replied as might encourage them, or their Hearers, to believe this piece of Popery, that they Are unerring, and infallible in the chair: pray, Sir, do not think my Famous pride, or Self-conceitedness (which you say hath provoked you to break your chains, and to let lose your pen, that you might whip me into Humility) hath prompted me to say this.
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Had you named the Reverend persons whose Books I am not worthy to carry after them, so they be Greek or Latine Books, and those well understood by them, perhaps I should have exprest a greater Act of Humility then you are aware of,
Had you nam the Reverend Persons whose Books I am not worthy to carry After them, so they be Greek or Latin Books, and those well understood by them, perhaps I should have expressed a greater Act of Humility then you Are aware of,
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and have been content (though one of the new Doctors yet by the second Subscription of your Letter but a Master of Art ) to sit a while at the feet of such learned Gamaliel's. But speaking indefinitely as you do, I hope Sir,
and have been content (though one of the new Doctors yet by the second Subscription of your letter but a Master of Art) to fit a while At the feet of such learned Gamaliel's. But speaking indefinitely as you do, I hope Sir,
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for twenty years study sake in this Ʋniversity, (where I have learnt to distinguish the letters of the Greek Alphabet, and at first sight do know that it would beget a NONLATINALPHABET,
for twenty Years study sake in this Ʋniversity, (where I have learned to distinguish the letters of the Greek Alphabet, and At First sighed do know that it would beget a,
or quarrell among the Vowells, if 〈 ◊ 〉 in a word should usurp the place of 〈 ◊ 〉) you will find me a nobler imployment then to carry Books after Them who count Liberaries Superfluous, humane, Secular Things;
or quarrel among the Vowels, if 〈 ◊ 〉 in a word should usurp the place of 〈 ◊ 〉) you will find me a Nobler employment then to carry Books After Them who count Libraries Superfluous, humane, Secular Things;
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And think a Minister, not Minister of Gospel, (as your Scribe hath twice erred in the transcription of your letter, in a vowell very fatall to you) needs no other furniture but the Spirit, Cottons Concordance, and the English Bible without the Apocrypha.
And think a Minister, not Minister of Gospel, (as your Scribe hath twice erred in the transcription of your Letter, in a vowel very fatal to you) needs no other furniture but the Spirit, Cottons Concordance, and the English bible without the Apocrypha.
Sir, I am sorry the Fit which the mention of the Scruple-house did put you into, should be increased by the mention of a Dark Roome. There goes a Story of one who had tasted a while of Bedlam, and was at length, by the help of Discipline, dyet, and Physick, cured of his Distraction; yet not so perfectly,
Sir, I am sorry the Fit which the mention of the Scruple-house did put you into, should be increased by the mention of a Dark Room. There Goes a Story of one who had tasted a while of Bedlam, and was At length, by the help of Discipline, diet, and Physic, cured of his Distraction; yet not so perfectly,
but that still when he came within the sight of the place, his fancy remembred him of his old Distemper, and tempted him to do something which required a second cure. I speak not this parable to upbraid any with an infirmity which is unavoydably naturall to them,
but that still when he Come within the sighed of the place, his fancy remembered him of his old Distemper, and tempted him to do something which required a second cure. I speak not this parable to upbraid any with an infirmity which is avoidable natural to them,
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and no way contracted from the pride, or irregularity of their own Wills; But if you have read Tully's Paradoxes, you may remember, Sir, that he there maintains the Opinion of the Stoicks, that not onely they whose chaines and fetters, proclaim them distempered, but that all foolish, over passionate men are to be reckoned into the number of those who are to be cured by manacles, and chaynes: pray Sir, do not take it ill,
and no Way contracted from the pride, or irregularity of their own Wills; But if you have read Tully's Paradoxes, you may Remember, Sir, that he there maintains the Opinion of the Stoics, that not only they whose chains and fetters, proclaim them distempered, but that all foolish, over passionate men Are to be reckoned into the number of those who Are to be cured by manacles, and chains: pray Sir, do not take it ill,
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if (being as you say a Poet ) I cite a Poet who was of this Opinion; but maintains it like a Philosopher, (I will not say a School Divine. ) And having insisted in verse upon Covetousness as one, Ambition as another, The love of beauty either in reall or painted faces, as another Species of Madness, He concludes in Anger, and sayes, Ira furor brevis est; that is, That the Cholerick man, during the fit of his choler, is in a short phrenzy. That which Seneca, Tully, and Horace, called madness, (though not the other more naturall, (which I should be uncharitable to object to you) you by this letter (especially the angry part of it) have given me very justifiable cause to apply to you, who (as all dispassionated men may judge) have fulfill'd the Poets definition of Madness upon your self in all the parts of it but one, which is, that your Anger against me is not furor Brevis, a short distraction, but extends from the word Scruple-house to the End of your Letter. For first, Sir, in Language almost as unclean, as the sin of uncleanness it self, you endeavour to raise a Suspition upon me in the world as if I had been more familiar then I should with light Women in dark Roomes:
if (being as you say a Poet) I Cite a Poet who was of this Opinion; but maintains it like a Philosopher, (I will not say a School Divine.) And having insisted in verse upon Covetousness as one, Ambition as Another, The love of beauty either in real or painted faces, as Another Species of Madness, He concludes in Anger, and Says, Ira Furor brevis est; that is, That the Choleric man, during the fit of his choler, is in a short frenzy. That which Senecca, Tully, and Horace, called madness, (though not the other more natural, (which I should be uncharitable to Object to you) you by this Letter (especially the angry part of it) have given me very justifiable cause to apply to you, who (as all dispassionated men may judge) have fulfilled the Poets definition of Madness upon your self in all the parts of it but one, which is, that your Anger against me is not Furor Brevis, a short distraction, but extends from the word Scruple-house to the End of your letter. For First, Sir, in Language almost as unclean, as the since of uncleanness it self, you endeavour to raise a Suspicion upon me in the world as if I had been more familiar then I should with Light Women in dark Rooms:
Sir, besides the poverty of your wit, and quibling Antitheses of Expression, (to which I finde you in other places of your letter very subject ) I am not afraid (with all the confidence of an Innocent man ) to tell you, That as I never was an Enemy to that Sex, so I never converst with any of them single, or in a dark Congregation, so loosely, to deserve to have the slander fastned upon me, which Tertullian, and Minutius Faelix from him, say was laboured to be stuck upon the Christians of those Times, which was, That they used to meet in Conventicles, where their custome was,
Sir, beside the poverty of your wit, and quibbling Antitheses of Expression, (to which I find you in other places of your Letter very Subject) I am not afraid (with all the confidence of an Innocent man) to tell you, That as I never was an Enemy to that Sex, so I never conversed with any of them single, or in a dark Congregation, so loosely, to deserve to have the slander fastened upon me, which Tertullian, and Minutius Felix from him, say was laboured to be stuck upon the Christians of those Times, which was, That they used to meet in Conventicles, where their custom was,
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after the end of the Sermon, to put out the Candles, and then to commit Folly, the holy with the holy. Sir, in plain Termes, (How blameable soever other Errours, or vanities of my life may make me stand in the presence of God, who upon a true Repentance, Sir, is not so Fatally tyed to the Spindle of absolute Reprobation, as not to keep his promise, and to seal mercifull pardons, yet) in this particular, my known Conversation in this Ʋniversity, and all other places, bids me defie you;
After the end of the Sermon, to put out the Candles, and then to commit Folly, the holy with the holy. Sir, in plain Terms, (How blameable soever other Errors, or vanities of my life may make me stand in the presence of God, who upon a true Repentance, Sir, is not so Fatally tied to the Spindle of absolute Reprobation, as not to keep his promise, and to seal merciful Pardons, yet) in this particular, my known Conversation in this Ʋniversity, and all other places, bids me defy you;
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And challeng not only your self, but the precisest of your Informers, either heer, or any where else, (who use not to suffer the looks, Gestures, or thoughts of any who are not of their Tribe, much less notorious matter of Fact, to scape unquestioned ) to appear in an accusation against me;
And challenge not only your self, but the Precisest of your Informers, either her, or any where Else, (who use not to suffer the looks, Gestures, or thoughts of any who Are not of their Tribe, much less notorious matter of Fact, to escape unquestioned) to appear in an accusation against me;
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yet, certainly, They who shall read that passage of my Sermon, where I say, That if I were presently to enter into a dispute with the greatest Patriarch among these Prophets, who (notwithstanding that which I said before) will still perversly strive to prove that our Church stood in such need of Reformation, that the growing superstitions of it could not possibly be expiated,
yet, Certainly, They who shall read that passage of my Sermon, where I say, That if I were presently to enter into a dispute with the greatest Patriarch among these prophets, who (notwithstanding that which I said before) will still perversely strive to prove that our Church stood in such need of Reformation, that the growing superstitions of it could not possibly be expiated,
And shall compare the wilde Torrent of ill language, with which the furious remainder of your paragraph over-flows, with the Sober Web, and Composition of my Sermon, which you there think no worthier of,
And shall compare the wild Torrent of ill language, with which the furious remainder of your paragraph overflows, with the Sobrium Web, and Composition of my Sermon, which you there think no Worthier of,
then of a Triobolar Ballad, They will finde that you have said nothing in the progress of at least forty Folio-lines together, which shews not that your Reason assisted not your pen. One passage I confesse (like a lucide Intervall ) hath some taste of sobriety, and not short fury in it;
then of a Triobolar Ballad, They will find that you have said nothing in the progress of At least forty folio-lines together, which shows not that your Reason assisted not your pen. One passage I confess (like a lucid Interval) hath Some taste of sobriety, and not short fury in it;
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which is, that how meanly so ever you think you may speak of me, yet you think you are to make a more honourable mention of the Author of the Practicall Catechism. That learned Doctor, Sir, I am acquainted with,
which is, that how meanly so ever you think you may speak of me, yet you think you Are to make a more honourable mention of the Author of the Practical Catechism. That learned Doctor, Sir, I am acquainted with,
but not so inwardly as that he should contribute to the interlining any letter I write to you; or should suggest to me what he, not I, think fit to be maintain'd.
but not so inwardly as that he should contribute to the interlining any Letter I write to you; or should suggest to me what he, not I, think fit to be maintained.
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I wish your lucid intervall had been as long as your fit; For, then I perswade my self you would never have suspected that he did overlook my letter, or advised me to contend for the lawfulness of Prelacy, because he was present at the sad debate at Vxbridge.
I wish your lucid interval had been as long as your fit; For, then I persuade my self you would never have suspected that he did overlook my Letter, or advised me to contend for the lawfulness of Prelacy, Because he was present At the sad debate At Uxbridge.
and would put me to the mean imployment to convey your challenge. Sir, if I know that Doctor well, you had best content your self with me, who am a more poeticall adversary; & whose weapons, you know,
and would put me to the mean employment to convey your challenge. Sir, if I know that Doctor well, you had best content your self with me, who am a more poetical adversary; & whose weapons, you know,
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when they strike most, being sheath'd in Roses, ought to be terrible to none but such, whose buying & selling Consciences (like the money-changers in the Gospel ) wil drive them out of the Temple at the sight of a whip made of straws and rushes. Nevertheless, Sir,
when they strike most, being sheathed in Roses, ought to be terrible to none but such, whose buying & selling Consciences (like the money-changers in the Gospel) will drive them out of the Temple At the sighed of a whip made of straws and Rushes. Nevertheless, Sir,
if you be so fruitfully quarrelsome, that you think your leisure will serve you to hold combate with us both, let me desire you to hold this Opinion of us, that as I shal at no time recruit my self frō him as an Oratour, so he is too good a schollar to need my assistance as a Poet. This word Poet, I do observe, through the whole phrenzy of your letter, you strive to make use of in a disgraceful sense; And object it to me as a Reproach that the Muses are my Friends. In one place you call me a Cretian Prophet, That is, (according to your Comment ) a Poet; In another place you tell me, that onely the few places of scripture which I have misapplied in my Sermon, can preserve it from passing among the penny-merchandizes of those that sel Ballads.
if you be so fruitfully quarrelsome, that you think your leisure will serve you to hold combat with us both, let me desire you to hold this Opinion of us, that as I shall At no time recruit my self from him as an Orator, so he is too good a scholar to need my assistance as a Poet. This word Poet, I do observe, through the Whole frenzy of your Letter, you strive to make use of in a disgraceful sense; And Object it to me as a Reproach that the Muses Are my Friends. In one place you call me a Cretian Prophet, That is, (according to your Comment) a Poet; In Another place you tell me, that only the few places of scripture which I have misapplied in my Sermon, can preserve it from passing among the penny-merchandizes of those that sell Ballads.
In your next paragraph, (where you challenge me to dispute with you in English at St. Maries, as Mr Erbury did) one of your Arguments to move me to that frantick enterprize is,
In your next paragraph, (where you challenge me to dispute with you in English At Saint Mary's, as Mr Erbury did) one of your Arguments to move me to that frantic enterprise is,
because I am an English Poet, and have been not only addicted to Playes, but have shuffled my Mother-tongue Verses, with other Verses publisht in more learned languages, in the same Book Printed by the Ʋniversity-Printer.
Because I am an English Poet, and have been not only addicted to Plays, but have shuffled my mother-tongue Verses, with other Verses published in more learned languages, in the same Book Printed by the Ʋniversity-Printer.
First, sir, though the ungentleness of your stile, and Expressions, do sufficiently testifie that neither the Muses, nor Graces assisted at your Birth, yet I hope you are not such an enemy to numbers, to think poetry Superstitious, and therefore to be turn'd with Imagery out of the Church. If you do, you will compell me to call Nazianzen in to my Ayde; who, besides his writing of a Play (if Erasmus have not misnumbred them) hath written thirty thousand Heroick, Jambick, Hendecasyllable, Elegiack, and other verses. Tertullian, Sir, you know hath confuted Marcion in Verse; and Synesius thought it as great a glory to be called a good Poet, as some who wrote in prose did to be called fathers of the Church. I wil not repeat a peece of Prosper to you nor tel you what S. Austin hath said in the praif of Virgil. To be a Cretian Prophet, that is in your sense, a lying Poet, but in al theirs who understand the first C. of Titus, an Evil Beast, and a falfe Prophet ) Is I confesse a crime.
First, sir, though the ungentleness of your style, and Expressions, do sufficiently testify that neither the Muses, nor Graces assisted At your Birth, yet I hope you Are not such an enemy to numbers, to think poetry Superstitious, and Therefore to be turned with Imagery out of the Church. If you do, you will compel me to call Nazianzen in to my Aid; who, beside his writing of a Play (if Erasmus have not misnumbred them) hath written thirty thousand Heroic, Jambok, Hendecasyllable, Elegiac, and other Verses. Tertullian, Sir, you know hath confuted Marcion in Verse; and Synesius Thought it as great a glory to be called a good Poet, as Some who wrote in prose did to be called Father's of the Church. I will not repeat a piece of Prosper to you nor tell you what S. Austin hath said in the praif of Virgil. To be a Cretian Prophet, that is in your sense, a lying Poet, but in all theirs who understand the First C. of Titus, an Evil Beast, and a false Prophet) Is I confess a crime.
But then, sir, as one excellently sayes in his Defence of Poesie, This is a kind of Poetry which belongs to those who lye in prose as wel as those who fain in Verse. For Pliny, when he speaks of men with one foot, whose breadth interposed between them and the sun, shades their whole body, to be as great a poet as Ovid, when he speaks of a Virgin transformed into a Laurell, so, Sir,
But then, sir, as one excellently Says in his Defence of Poesy, This is a kind of Poetry which belongs to those who lie in prose as well as those who fain in Verse. For pliny, when he speaks of men with one foot, whose breadth interposed between them and the sun, shades their Whole body, to be as great a poet as Ovid, when he speaks of a Virgae transformed into a Laurel, so, Sir,
when you, (contrary to the direct minde, and Expressions of my Sermon ) fain that to be spoken of the Parliament, which is onely spoken against False Prophets. you are a far greater Poet then I have yet shewn my self either upon the Stage at Black-Fryers, or in any Ʋniversity Book here in Oxford. Next, sir, I was never so addicted to English Poetry, but that in the same Ʋniversity Book I had Latine Verses too;
when you, (contrary to the Direct mind, and Expressions of my Sermon) fain that to be spoken of the Parliament, which is only spoken against False prophets. you Are a Far greater Poet then I have yet shown my self either upon the Stage At Blackfriars, or in any Ʋniversity Book Here in Oxford. Next, sir, I was never so addicted to English Poetry, but that in the same Ʋniversity Book I had Latin Verses too;
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Because my Sermon Preacht there is English, next, because you conceive that to be the readiest course to undeceive the people who understand not Latine;
Because my Sermon Preached there is English, next, Because you conceive that to be the Readiest course to undeceive the people who understand not Latin;
if I should have consented to that course, whither you, as well as I, in the opinion of discreet men, might not have indangered our selves to have that half verse in Horace applyed to us, Aut insanit Home, aut versus facit, That either we are both mad, or both Poets,
if I should have consented to that course, whither you, as well as I, in the opinion of discreet men, might not have endangered our selves to have that half verse in Horace applied to us, Or insanit Home, Or versus facit, That either we Are both mad, or both Poets,
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The way to avoyd such an Imputation, in a Time of liberty, where every body may say what they list, is for us to stand constantly to the more Academicall Proposition I made you;
The Way to avoid such an Imputation, in a Time of liberty, where every body may say what they list, is for us to stand constantly to the more Academical Proposition I made you;
sir, not agreeing upon the true state of the Questions before hand, (For if we agree before hand, nothing will be left us to dispute) if you please, the Question shall be that which concludes your Letter; That is, Prelacy, which,
sir, not agreeing upon the true state of the Questions before hand, (For if we agree before hand, nothing will be left us to dispute) if you please, the Question shall be that which concludes your letter; That is, Prelacy, which,
In the mean time, sir, as I can by no means allow that victory, and Success, are alwayes the true signes of a Right cause, (Because, The Lord of Hosts, who, you say, hath broken all our forces, is sometimes falsely thought to assist, when in truth he doth only permit ) so, Sir when you write next to me, let me request you to keep your promise; which is, to deal with me rationally for the Matter, and Spiritually, that is,
In the mean time, sir, as I can by no means allow that victory, and Success, Are always the true Signs of a Right cause, (Because, The Lord of Hosts, who, you say, hath broken all our forces, is sometime falsely Thought to assist, when in truth he does only permit) so, Sir when you write next to me, let me request you to keep your promise; which is, to deal with me rationally for the Matter, and Spiritually, that is,
like a Divine for the language and forme. Otherwise, sir, though I have long since learnt from the best Master, that when I am reviled, I am not to revile againe, yet, instead of a Conference, meeting with nothing but Invectives, 'tis possible you may so farre provoke me from my mild temper, that the Philosophers expression in Lucians Nigrinus may be verified upon me;
like a Divine for the language and Form. Otherwise, sir, though I have long since learned from the best Master, that when I am reviled, I am not to revile again, yet, instead of a Conference, meeting with nothing but Invectives, it's possible you may so Far provoke me from my mild temper, that the Philosophers expression in Lucians Nigrinus may be verified upon me;
NONLATINALPHABET. The English of it will endure the publick test; to which if you will be pleased to submit your Letters with the same readiness that I am content to submit mine, I doubt not but the world will judge, that as you have not yet confuted, so you have very unchristianly injured From my Chamber, Jan. 23. 1646. The Author of the Sermon against False Prophets, J. MAYNE.
. The English of it will endure the public test; to which if you will be pleased to submit your Letters with the same readiness that I am content to submit mine, I doubt not but the world will judge, that as you have not yet confuted, so you have very unchristianly injured From my Chamber, Jan. 23. 1646. The Author of the Sermon against False prophets, J. MAYNE.
If I had not answered you according to your folly, you would have been wife in your owne conceit; but if I should againe answer you according to your folly, I feare I should become too like unto you, Prov. 26.4, 5. I told you that I did let loose my pen, that you might see how easie it is to answer you with a running pen, nay a running negligence in the less serious part of the day;
If I had not answered you according to your folly, you would have been wife in your own conceit; but if I should again answer you according to your folly, I Fear I should become too like unto you, Curae 26.4, 5. I told you that I did let lose my pen, that you might see how easy it is to answer you with a running pen, nay a running negligence in the less serious part of the day;
I did let fly so many quibbles that you might smell the stench of your owne elaborate folly; glad I am that you have censured me for imitating of you, I hope you will now be at leisure to censure your selfe, for setting me so foule a copy; doe but read over your owne Sermons and Letters, and suppose they were mine, and then seriously and impartially pass your sentence on them,
I did let fly so many quibbles that you might smell the stench of your own elaborate folly; glad I am that you have censured me for imitating of you, I hope you will now be At leisure to censure your self, for setting me so foul a copy; do but read over your own Sermons and Letters, and suppose they were mine, and then seriously and impartially pass your sentence on them,
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1. Sir, you did as I conceive preach in defence of all images set up in any Chappell in the Ʋniversity; you know there are divers Images of some persons in the glorious Trinity set up in some Chappels within this Ʋniversity: You must then acknowledge all Images of that sort ought to be taken downe.
1. Sir, you did as I conceive preach in defence of all Images Set up in any Chapel in the Ʋniversity; you know there Are diverse Images of Some Persons in the glorious Trinity Set up in Some Chapels within this Ʋniversity: You must then acknowledge all Images of that sort ought to be taken down.
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You are not perswaded by any Scriptures which I have cited, but nature hath taught you (so pure is your nature ) that it is a breach of the second Commandement to draw a picture of God:
You Are not persuaded by any Scriptures which I have cited, but nature hath taught you (so pure is your nature) that it is a breach of the second Commandment to draw a picture of God:
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(revise that fancy ) the Schoolmen whom you prefer before the testimonies cited out of the Word, have taught you that it is not onely sinfull, but impossible to draw any picture of God. But, be pleased to consider that the Scriptures are a perfect (nay indeed the onely All-sufficient perfect ) Rule, & therefore you need not goe about to patch up the rule with the low generall dictates of nature & School-men, you may study the L•llian Art. & fill your braine with Sebund's fancyes, but my Schoole-men (as you call them) are the best Tutors, & the best Schollars. If you prove that is is impossible to picture God, you doe not touch the point in Controversie, for vaine men will fancy and endeavour to doe, that which is impossible for to be done.
(revise that fancy) the Schoolmen whom you prefer before the testimonies cited out of the Word, have taught you that it is not only sinful, but impossible to draw any picture of God. But, be pleased to Consider that the Scriptures Are a perfect (nay indeed the only All-sufficient perfect) Rule, & Therefore you need not go about to patch up the Rule with the low general dictates of nature & Schoolmen, you may study the L•llian Art. & fill your brain with Sebund's fancies, but my Schoolmen (as you call them) Are the best Tutors, & the best Scholars. If you prove that is is impossible to picture God, you do not touch the point in Controversy, for vain men will fancy and endeavour to do, that which is impossible for to be done.
and were able to demonstrate out of their Poets that we are Gods off-spring, yet were not able without the help of divine Revelation to infer, from thence, that the Godhead is not like to Gold, as you may see it convincingly proved; Act 17.29.
and were able to demonstrate out of their Poets that we Are God's offspring, yet were not able without the help of divine Revelation to infer, from thence, that the Godhead is not like to Gold, as you may see it convincingly proved; Act 17.29.
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or stone graven by Art or mans device, I dare not therefore make the Schoolmen my Judges in this weighty point, and I beleeve you cannot prove them to be Judges in any point which concernes the Mystery of faith or the power of godliness, but enough of that.
or stone graved by Art or men device, I Dare not Therefore make the Schoolmen my Judges in this weighty point, and I believe you cannot prove them to be Judges in any point which concerns the Mystery of faith or the power of godliness, but enough of that.
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3. The word (thereupon) is sometimes Illative, sometimes Ordinative, you are sufficiently answered; but let me adde, that if no Image is like God, then sure those Images, which are not made to represent God, and yet are by Idolatours turned into Idols, and worshipped as if they were divine, cannot reasonably be defended. Sir, I must guess at your meaning, because I beleeve you have omitted two or three words (such is your running negligence ) which should help to make your sophisticall criticisme perfect sense.
3. The word (thereupon) is sometime Illative, sometime Ordinative, you Are sufficiently answered; but let me add, that if no Image is like God, then sure those Images, which Are not made to represent God, and yet Are by Idolaters turned into Idols, and worshipped as if they were divine, cannot reasonably be defended. Sir, I must guess At your meaning, Because I believe you have omitted two or three words (such is your running negligence) which should help to make your sophistical criticism perfect sense.
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Truly Sir, if it be so high a fault to picture God: I may justly wonder that any picture of a Saint turned into an Idoll should be retained and pleaded for by any man that pretends to be a Protestant, and if it be impossible to picture God, it is also impossible to picture God-man. And I beleeve that you will acknowledge our Mediatour to be NONLATINALPHABET.
Truly Sir, if it be so high a fault to picture God: I may justly wonder that any picture of a Saint turned into an Idol should be retained and pleaded for by any man that pretends to be a Protestant, and if it be impossible to picture God, it is also impossible to picture God-man. And I believe that you will acknowledge our Mediator to be.
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4. That the Sun and Images cannot be put in the scales of a comparison in point of fitness to be preserved, is a truth written with a Sun-beame; Sir, I never durst argue from the abuse of a thing against the use of it,
4. That the Sun and Images cannot be put in the scales of a comparison in point of fitness to be preserved, is a truth written with a Sunbeam; Sir, I never durst argue from the abuse of a thing against the use of it,
if the thing be necessary; But the Sun is necessary, and Images are not necessary, ergo there is no parity of reason between the termes of your comparison.
if the thing be necessary; But the Sun is necessary, and Images Are not necessary, ergo there is no parity of reason between the terms of your comparison.
6. You will never be able to prove, that all, that the prelates and their Faction have borrowed out of the Missall, Ritualls, Breviary Pontificall of Rome are to be found in any Lyturgie received by the Primitive Church; And I would intreat you to consider,
6. You will never be able to prove, that all, that the Prelates and their Faction have borrowed out of the Missal, Rituals, Breviary Pontifical of Room Are to be found in any Liturgy received by the Primitive Church; And I would entreat you to Consider,
whether they, who doe profess a seperation from the Church of Rome, can in reason receive and imbrace such trash and trumpery. And yet though you would willingly be esteemed a Protestant, I find you very unwilling to part with any thing which the Prelates have borrowed from the Court (rather the Church ) of Rome.
whither they, who do profess a separation from the Church of Room, can in reason receive and embrace such trash and trumpery. And yet though you would willingly be esteemed a Protestant, I find you very unwilling to part with any thing which the Prelates have borrowed from the Court (rather the Church) of Room.
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7. Your next Paragraph doth concerne Tradition; I shall give you leave to preferre the constant and universall consent of the Church of Christ in all ages,
7. Your next Paragraph does concern Tradition; I shall give you leave to prefer the constant and universal consent of the Church of christ in all ages,
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but Sir, you doe very ill to call the testimony of the spirit speaking in the word to the Conscience of private men, a private spirit; I thinke you are more profane in the stating of this point then Bellarmine himselfe.
but Sir, you do very ill to call the testimony of the Spirit speaking in the word to the Conscience of private men, a private Spirit; I think you Are more profane in the stating of this point then Bellarmine himself.
9. I should be glad to know for how many yeares you will justifie the purity of the Doctrine, Discipline and Government in England. I beleeve the Doctrine, Discipline and Government of the Prelaticall faction whom you call the Church, was not excellent, if you reckon from 1630. to 1640. and that is time enough for men of our time for to examine.
9. I should be glad to know for how many Years you will justify the purity of the Doctrine, Discipline and Government in England. I believe the Doctrine, Discipline and Government of the Prelatical faction whom you call the Church, was not excellent, if you reckon from 1630. to 1640. and that is time enough for men of our time for to examine.
I beleeve that you will acknowledge that the Prelates did lay an Ostracisme upon those who did oppose them; who were in the right both in the point of Doctrine and Discipline, we shall in due time dispute.
I believe that you will acknowledge that the Prelates did lay an Ostracism upon those who did oppose them; who were in the right both in the point of Doctrine and Discipline, we shall in due time dispute.
Though Prelacy it selfe be an usurpation, yet there were many other encroachments which may justly be called Prelaticall usurpations, and the Parliament hath sufficiently declared its judgement in this point, they have clearly proved that Prelacy had taken such a deepe root in England, and had such a destructive influence, not only into the pernicious evills of the Church, but Civill State, that the Law of right reason (even Salus populi quae suprema lex est ) did command and compell them to take away both roote and branch; you may dispute that point with them; Sir, you cannot prove that Prelacy is an Order of the Church,
Though Prelacy it self be an usurpation, yet there were many other encroachments which may justly be called Prelatical usurpations, and the Parliament hath sufficiently declared its judgement in this point, they have clearly proved that Prelacy had taken such a deep root in England, and had such a destructive influence, not only into the pernicious evils of the Church, but Civil State, that the Law of right reason (even Salus People Quae Supreme lex est) did command and compel them to take away both root and branch; you may dispute that point with them; Sir, you cannot prove that Prelacy is an Order of the Church,
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10. I am no Turkish Prophet, I never preacht any piece of the Alchoran for good Doctrine, much less did I ever make it a piece of the Gospell; all that I say is this, that Christians incorporated in a Civill State may make use of Civill and naturall means for their outward safety. And that the Parliament hath a Legall power more then sufficient to prevent and restrain Tyranny. Finally, the Parliament hath power to defend that Civill right which we have to exercise the true Protestant Religion, this last point is sure of highest consequence because it concernes Gods immediate honour, and the Peoples temporall and eternall good.
10. I am no Turkish Prophet, I never preached any piece of the Alcoran for good Doctrine, much less did I ever make it a piece of the Gospel; all that I say is this, that Christians incorporated in a Civil State may make use of Civil and natural means for their outward safety. And that the Parliament hath a Legal power more then sufficient to prevent and restrain Tyranny. Finally, the Parliament hath power to defend that Civil right which we have to exercise the true Protestant Religion, this last point is sure of highest consequence Because it concerns God's immediate honour, and the Peoples temporal and Eternal good.
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Pray Sir, shew me if you can, why, he who saith the Protestants in Ireland may defend their Civill right for the free exercise of their Religion, against the furious assaults of the bloudie Rebells, doth by that assertion proclaime himself a Turke, and Denison the Alchoran; you talke of the Papists Religion, Sir, their faith is faction, their Religion is Rebellion, they think they are obliged in conscience, to put Heretiques to the sword, this Religion is destructive to every Civill State into which true Protestants are incorporated, & therefore I cannot but wonder at your extravagancy in this point. Sir, Who was it that would have imposed a Popish Service Book upon Scotland by force of Armes? You presume that I conceive the King had an intent to extirpate the Protestant Religion; Sir, I am sure that they who did seduce or over-awe the King, had such a designe. I doe not beleeve that the Queene and her Agents (the Papists in England who were certainly confederate with the Irish Rebells ) had any intent to settle the true Protestant Religion; & you cannot but beleeve that their intent was, to extirpate the Protestant Religion by the sword, and to plant Popery inits stead;
prey Sir, show me if you can, why, he who Says the Protestants in Ireland may defend their Civil right for the free exercise of their Religion, against the furious assaults of the bloody Rebels, does by that assertion proclaim himself a Turk, and Denison the Alcoran; you talk of the Papists Religion, Sir, their faith is faction, their Religion is Rebellion, they think they Are obliged in conscience, to put Heretics to the sword, this Religion is destructive to every Civil State into which true Protestants Are incorporated, & Therefore I cannot but wonder At your extravagancy in this point. Sir, Who was it that would have imposed a Popish Service Book upon Scotland by force of Arms? You presume that I conceive the King had an intent to extirpate the Protestant Religion; Sir, I am sure that they who did seduce or overawe the King, had such a Design. I do not believe that the Queen and her Agents (the Papists in England who were Certainly confederate with the Irish Rebels) had any intent to settle the true Protestant Religion; & you cannot but believe that their intent was, to extirpate the Protestant Religion by the sword, and to plant Popery inits stead;
I know Christ doth make prose•ites, and breake the spirituall power of Antichrist, by his word and spirit, for Antichrist is cast out of the hearts and consciences of men by the spirit of the Lord Jesus; but Christ is King of Nations as well as King of Saints, and will breake the temporall power of Antichrist by Civill and naturall meanes. If Papists and Delinquents are in readiness to resist or assault the Parliament by Armes, how can the Parliament be defended or Delinquents punished but by force of Armes? I know men must be converted by a spirituall perswasion, but they may be terrified by force of Armes from persecution.
I know christ does make prose•ites, and break the spiritual power of Antichrist, by his word and Spirit, for Antichrist is cast out of the hearts and Consciences of men by the Spirit of the Lord jesus; but christ is King of nations as well as King of Saints, and will break the temporal power of Antichrist by Civil and natural means. If Papists and Delinquents Are in readiness to resist or assault the Parliament by Arms, how can the Parliament be defended or Delinquents punished but by force of Arms? I know men must be converted by a spiritual persuasion, but they may be terrified by force of Arms from persecution.
All that I say, is, the Parliament may repell force with force, and if men were afraid to profess the truth because of the Queenes Army. and are now as fearfull to maintaine errours for feare of the Parliament, the scales are even,
All that I say, is, the Parliament may repel force with force, and if men were afraid to profess the truth Because of the Queens Army. and Are now as fearful to maintain errors for Fear of the Parliament, the scales Are even,
and we may (by study, conference, disputation, and prayer for a blessing upon all) be convinced, and converted by the undenyable demonstrations of the Spirit;
and we may (by study, conference, disputation, and prayer for a blessing upon all) be convinced, and converted by the undeniable demonstrations of the Spirit;
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11. I am glad that you speake out, and give light to your darke roome; I did not accuse you of Convenicles. I beleeve you hate those Christian meetings which Tertullian & Minutius, Pliny and others speake of;
11. I am glad that you speak out, and give Light to your dark room; I did not accuse you of Convenicles. I believe you hate those Christian meetings which Tertullian & Minutius, pliny and Others speak of;
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we had lights and witnesses good store at our meetings. And as for your conceit, that I deserve to be in Bedlam, because of the predominancy of my pride and passion,
we had lights and Witnesses good store At our meetings. And as for your conceit, that I deserve to be in Bedlam, Because of the predominancy of my pride and passion,
Sir, I confess that I deserve to be in Hell, a worse place then Bedlam; and if you scoffe at me for this acknowledgement, I shall say as Augustine did, Irrideant me arrogantes, & nondum salubritèr prostrati,
Sir, I confess that I deserve to be in Hell, a Worse place then Bedlam; and if you scoff At me for this acknowledgement, I shall say as Augustine did, Irrideant me arrogantes, & Nondum salubritèr Prostrati,
or else you may quickly come to have as litle wit as you conceive, God hath bestowed on me. 1. Doe you beleeve that your nature is corrupt? 2. And doth not a wanton wit make the heart effeminate? 3. Did you never converse with any woman of light behaviour? rub up your memory. 4. Superstitious persons are usually lascivious, I could tell you more,
or Else you may quickly come to have as little wit as you conceive, God hath bestowed on me. 1. Do you believe that your nature is corrupt? 2. And does not a wanton wit make the heart effeminate? 3. Did you never converse with any woman of Light behaviour? rub up your memory. 4. Superstitious Persons Are usually lascivious, I could tell you more,
but I spare you. 5. Are you more temperate then the Disciples to whom Christ gave that caveat, Luk. 21.34? you may then apply your selfe to Prayer and Fasting; doe not say that this is a filthy Caveat, but beware of that filthy sinne, and acknowledge that the Caveat is given you, upon sad considerations.
but I spare you. 5. are you more temperate then the Disciples to whom christ gave that caveat, Luk. 21.34? you may then apply your self to Prayer and Fasting; do not say that this is a filthy Caveat, but beware of that filthy sin, and acknowledge that the Caveat is given you, upon sad considerations.
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12. You tell me that God is not so fatally tyed to the Spindle of an absolute Reprobation, but that upon your Repentance he will seale your Pardon. Sir, Reprobatio est tremendum Mysterium; how dare you jest upon such a Subject, at the thought of which each Christian trembles? Can any man repent, that is given up to a reprobate mind, and an impenitent heart? And is not every man finally impenitent, save those few to whom God gives repentance, freely, powerfully, effectually? See what it is for a man to come from Ben. Johnson, or Lucian, to treat immediately of the •igh and stupendidious mysteries of Religion; the Lord God pardon this wicked thought of your heart, that you may not perish in the bond of iniquity and gall of bitterness; be pleased to study the 9. Chapter to the Romanes.
12. You tell me that God is not so fatally tied to the Spindle of an absolute Reprobation, but that upon your Repentance he will seal your Pardon. Sir, Reprobation est tremendum Mysterium; how Dare you jest upon such a Subject, At the Thought of which each Christian trembles? Can any man Repent, that is given up to a Reprobate mind, and an impenitent heart? And is not every man finally impenitent, save those few to whom God gives Repentance, freely, powerfully, effectually? See what it is for a man to come from Ben. Johnson, or Lucian, to Treat immediately of the •igh and stupendidious Mysteres of Religion; the Lord God pardon this wicked Thought of your heart, that you may not perish in the bound of iniquity and Gall of bitterness; be pleased to study the 9. Chapter to the Romans.
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Sir, it is 1. one thing to state a question for debate, so that you may undertake the affirmative, I the Negative, or è contrat: 2. another thing to state a question in a supposition as the Respondent usually doth,
Sir, it is 1. one thing to state a question for debate, so that you may undertake the affirmative, I the Negative, or è contrat: 2. Another thing to state a question in a supposition as the Respondent usually does,
I speake of agreeing upon the state of the question in the first sense, that the Question may be propounded in such termes as doe so farre state the point in Controversie, that you and I may know which port to take, the Affirmative or Negative.
I speak of agreeing upon the state of the question in the First sense, that the Question may be propounded in such terms as do so Far state the point in Controversy, that you and I may know which port to take, the Affirmative or Negative.
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1. Whether all that our Prelates have borrowed of the Church of Rome, and imposed upon the people, ought to be still retained in the Church of England? 2. Whether the Images of our Mediatour, and the Saints are usefull Ornaments in Protestant Churches? 3. Whether any Prelate be endued with the power of sole Ordination and Jurisdiction Jure divine? 4. Whether they who defend the Protestants of Ireland against the Rebells by force of Armes, are therefore to be esteemed Mahumetans? 5. Whether that faith which is grounded only upon Tradition, ought to be esteemed a Divine faith? 6. Whether the spirit speaking in the word to the conscience of private men ought to be esteemed a private Spirit? 7. Whether any Reprobate can ever be converted or saved? 8. Whether the Papists of England, & Rebells of Ireland with their Confederates did endeavour to extirpate the Protestant Religion and plant Popery in its stead? 9. Whether they who endeavoured to impose a Popish Service-Booke upon Scotland by force of Armes, were of the Mahumetan perswasion? 10. Whether the School-men are Competent judges in any point which concernes the Mysterie of Faith or Power of Godliness? 11. Whether the Nationall Covenant contradict it selfe?
1. Whither all that our Prelates have borrowed of the Church of Room, and imposed upon the people, ought to be still retained in the Church of England? 2. Whither the Images of our Mediator, and the Saints Are useful Ornament in Protestant Churches? 3. Whither any Prelate be endued with the power of sole Ordination and Jurisdiction Jure divine? 4. Whither they who defend the Protestants of Ireland against the Rebels by force of Arms, Are Therefore to be esteemed Mahumetans? 5. Whither that faith which is grounded only upon Tradition, ought to be esteemed a Divine faith? 6. Whither the Spirit speaking in the word to the conscience of private men ought to be esteemed a private Spirit? 7. Whither any Reprobate can ever be converted or saved? 8. Whither the Papists of England, & Rebels of Ireland with their Confederates did endeavour to extirpate the Protestant Religion and plant Popery in its stead? 9. Whither they who endeavoured to impose a Popish Service-Booke upon Scotland by force of Arms, were of the Mahometan persuasion? 10. Whither the Schoolmen Are Competent judges in any point which concerns the Mystery of Faith or Power of Godliness? 11. Whither the National Covenant contradict it self?
Sir, if you please to answer upon the three first questions in the Schools, and hold them as you seem to hold them all Affirmatively, I shall endeavour to prove the Negative.
Sir, if you please to answer upon the three First questions in the Schools, and hold them as you seem to hold them all Affirmatively, I shall endeavour to prove the Negative.
I did very honestly forewarn you of a visitation; it is I thinke proper enough to enquire into matters of fact at a visitation. Now whether Copes have been put to a superstitious use is not a question to be determined by any but In-Artificiall Arguments, I mean by sufficient witnesses. To that which you Prophesie of, that I am like to be a Visitor; I answer 1. I thinke you have litle ground for such a Prophecy: I call it a Prophecy, for I am sure the Houses of Parliament have not yet named any Visitor. 2. You talke much of the wisedome of the High Court of Parliament; and can you imagine that so wise a Court or (as you terme it) Councell will make choice of a Bedlam, a Turke, Dog, &c. to visit so many prudent and learned Doctors?
I did very honestly forewarn you of a Visitation; it is I think proper enough to inquire into matters of fact At a Visitation. Now whither Copes have been put to a superstitious use is not a question to be determined by any but Inartificial Arguments, I mean by sufficient Witnesses. To that which you Prophesy of, that I am like to be a Visitor; I answer 1. I think you have little ground for such a Prophecy: I call it a Prophecy, for I am sure the Houses of Parliament have not yet nam any Visitor. 2. You talk much of the Wisdom of the High Court of Parliament; and can you imagine that so wise a Court or (as you term it) Council will make choice of a Bedlam, a Turk, Dog, etc. to visit so many prudent and learned Doctors?
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Sir, you say you are not satisfied with my Arguments, you might have consider'd that I doe reserve my arguments till we meete at Schooles, our worke for the present is to draw up the Points in Controversie into formall questions; I have you see formed some questions, if you please to adde more, you may, I shall be ready to give you the best satisfaction I can,
Sir, you say you Are not satisfied with my Arguments, you might have considered that I do reserve my Arguments till we meet At Schools, our work for the present is to draw up the Points in Controversy into formal questions; I have you see formed Some questions, if you please to add more, you may, I shall be ready to give you the best satisfaction I can,
after these are discussed, if I be not called away to some better imployment by those who have power to dispose of Your humble Monitor, FRAN: CHEYNELL.
After these Are discussed, if I be not called away to Some better employment by those who have power to dispose of Your humble Monitor, FRANCE: CHEYNELL.
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An Omnia è Missali Breviario necnon Pontificali Romano à Prelat is nostris decerpta, populo { que } obstrusa in Ecclesiam recipienda sint? Christi Sanctorum { que } imagines Reformatorum Templis utili sint ornatui? Soli Praelato potestas Ordinationis nec non Jurisdictionis Jure divino competat? In hisce quaestionibus animi tui sententiam expectat FRANCISCUS CHEYNELL.
an Omnia è Missal Breviario Necnon Pontifical Romano à Prelate is nostris decerpta, populo { que } obstrusa in Church recipienda sint? Christ Sanctorum { que } imagines Reformatorum Templis utili sint ornatui? Soli Praelato potestas Ordinationis nec non Jurisdictionis Jure divino competat? In hisce quaestionibus animi tui sententiam Expects FRANCIS CHEYNELL.
First, I was sorry, that it began in that kinde of bitterness, which useth to have the same mischievous effect upon minds not addicted to quarrel, as blear eyes have upon other eyes more sound. Which finde themselves insensibly infected by beholding; And in the presence of those that are bleared unawares learne their imperfections, and become bleared too.
First, I was sorry, that it began in that kind of bitterness, which uses to have the same mischievous Effect upon minds not addicted to quarrel, as blear eyes have upon other eyes more found. Which find themselves insensibly infected by beholding; And in the presence of those that Are bleared unawares Learn their imperfections, and become bleared too.
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Next, I was glad, that the Controversies betweene us, (which like the originall of mankinde, began in two, and in a short time had multiplyed themselves past number ) were at length reduced to three latine questions, and those to be disputed in the Divinity School; where that part of Oxford, which understands no other Tongue, but that in which they dayly utter their commodities, if they had been present towards the making of a throng, had yet beene absent to the dispute.
Next, I was glad, that the Controversies between us, (which like the original of mankind, began in two, and in a short time had multiplied themselves passed number) were At length reduced to three latin questions, and those to be disputed in the Divinity School; where that part of Oxford, which understands no other Tongue, but that in which they daily utter their commodities, if they had been present towards the making of a throng, had yet been absent to the dispute.
Thus divided, therefore, between my provocations to Answer the reproachfull Preface, and my Alacrity to comply with the Conclusion of the precedent Letter, I returned this following Answer. Sir,
Thus divided, Therefore, between my provocations to Answer the reproachful Preface, and my Alacrity to comply with the Conclusion of the precedent letter, I returned this following Answer. Sir,
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When I had open'd the Letter you sent me on Saturday night last, Jan. 30. and found by the first period of it, that as your first Letter shew'd you a great Master in Detraction, so in this you had learnt the Art to make the Scripture revile me too,
When I had opened the letter you sent me on Saturday night last, Jan. 30. and found by the First Period of it, that as your First letter showed you a great Master in Detraction, so in this you had learned the Art to make the Scripture revile me too,
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how easily, and with what an unforc'd Dexterity, in the less serious part of the Day, without premeditation, or the expence of Study, you could revile me;
how Easily, and with what an unforced Dexterity, in the less serious part of the Day, without premeditation, or the expense of Study, you could revile me;
And withall, that you did let flye so many quibbles (as the exercise of your Recreation, I presume) to minde me of my more industrious Trifles, I must confess I not onely look't upon you as a Person fit to sit in the Seat of the Scornfull, but as one very capable to be requited with a Proverb; which the same Chapter which you quoted, presented to me at the 18. & 19. Verses; where 'tis said, That as a mad-man who casteth-firebrands, Arrows,
And withal, that you did let fly so many quibbles (as the exercise of your Recreation, I presume) to mind me of my more Industria Trifles, I must confess I not only looked upon you as a Person fit to fit in the Seat of the Scornful, but as one very capable to be requited with a Proverb; which the same Chapter which you quoted, presented to me At the 18. & 19. Verses; where it's said, That as a madman who casteth-firebrands, Arrows,
Sir, I should not have applyed this price of Scripture to you by way of Retaliation, (which may seem to have some bitterness in it) had you not at the very threshold and first unlocking of your Letter, verified this Proverb upon your self, by casting firebrands and Arrows first,
Sir, I should not have applied this price of Scripture to you by Way of Retaliation, (which may seem to have Some bitterness in it) had you not At the very threshold and First unlocking of your letter, verified this Proverb upon your self, by casting firebrands and Arrows First,
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as a Divine ingaged in a needless Controversie with a Divine ought to be) unsuccesfully flattered my self, that for the future, though I could not expect much Reason or proof or Argument from you,
as a Divine engaged in a needless Controversy with a Divine ought to be) unsuccessfully flattered my self, that for the future, though I could not expect much Reason or proof or Argument from you,
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yet you would certainly bind your self to the Laws of Sobriety, and good Language. How you have made good your promise, will appear to any, who (besides the reproachfull proverb with which you begin your Letter, and for which, a greater then Solomon hath said you shall be in Danger of Hell-fire ) shall read the puddle of your letter which streams from the first foul Spring, and Head of it;
yet you would Certainly bind your self to the Laws of Sobriety, and good Language. How you have made good your promise, will appear to any, who (beside the reproachful proverb with which you begin your letter, and for which, a greater then Solomon hath said you shall be in Danger of Hell-fire) shall read the puddle of your Letter which streams from the First foul Spring, and Head of it;
where, having first charged me in my writing to you with Elaborate Folly, you make it an Excuse to the Dirt and mire of your pen, that I set you the Copy, and was foul in my Expressions first.
where, having First charged me in my writing to you with Elaborate Folly, you make it an Excuse to the Dirt and mire of your pen, that I Set you the Copy, and was foul in my Expressions First.
Sir, Though the saying of Tacitus be one of the best confutations of Detraction, Convitia spreta exolescunt, and though I have alwaies thought that to enter combate with a Dunghill is the way to come off more defiled, yet finding my self engaged (like one of the poeticall Knights errant ) with an Adversary that will not onely provoke me to fight, but, whos best weapon is to defile me out of the field, I shal for once apply as good perfume to the stench you speak of,
Sir, Though the saying of Tacitus be one of the best confutations of Detraction, Convent Spreta exolescunt, and though I have always Thought that to enter combat with a Dunghill is the Way to come off more defiled, yet finding my self engaged (like one of the poetical Knights errant) with an Adversary that will not only provoke me to fight, but, whose best weapon is to defile me out of the field, I shall for once apply as good perfume to the stench you speak of,
first to your self, next to the world, (if you will consent that what thus secretly passeth between us shall be made publike, and Printed ) that you are not onely fallible in your most sad,
First to your self, next to the world, (if you will consent that what thus secretly passes between us shall be made public, and Printed) that you Are not only fallible in your most sad,
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First, that there is so much loyalty, and so little self-interest in them, that my imagination can never be strong enough to Suppose them to be yours, Next, That what Folly soever betrayes it self in your expressions, yet the matter is built upon such sure rocks of the Scripture, that 'tis not all the waves or Tempest which you can raise against them, wil be able to reduce them to the fate of a House built upon the Sand. Thirdly, (since all Disputes, as wel as wit, are like a Rest Kept up at Tennis, where good players do the best with the best Gamsters ) I do sadly promise you, that when ever you shal either write or urge to me such Arguments of serious Consideration, that I shal not have reason to think St. Pauls saying verified in thy Expressions, that my Foolish things are sufficient to confound, and bring to nought your wise; I wil lay aside the Folly you tax me withal.
First, that there is so much loyalty, and so little self-interest in them, that my imagination can never be strong enough to Suppose them to be yours, Next, That what Folly soever betrays it self in your expressions, yet the matter is built upon such sure Rocks of the Scripture, that it's not all the waves or Tempest which you can raise against them, will be able to reduce them to the fate of a House built upon the Sand. Thirdly, (since all Disputes, as well as wit, Are like a Rest Kept up At tennis, where good players do the best with the best Gamesters) I do sadly promise you, that when ever you shall either write or urge to me such Arguments of serious Consideration, that I shall not have reason to think Saint Paul's saying verified in thy Expressions, that my Foolish things Are sufficient to confound, and bring to nought your wise; I will lay aside the Folly you Tax me withal.
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In the mean time, if you think my Letters to you By what Glass soever my Sermons were made) are elaborate, pray compare the Dates, and Receipts of them, with the No-d••es, and uncertain Receipts of yours; And you wil find that the longest letter, I have yet written to you, was but the creature of two days, when your unelaborate answer to it back again was the Birth, and Travell of a whole week.
In the mean time, if you think my Letters to you By what Glass soever my Sermons were made) Are elaborate, pray compare the Dates, and Receipts of them, with the No-d••es, and uncertain Receipts of yours; And you will find that the longest Letter, I have yet written to you, was but the creature of two days, when your unelaborate answer to it back again was the Birth, and Travel of a Whole Week.
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Having said this, Sir, by way of Answer to your ungospel - like preface, I shal next, (confining my self once more to your own method ) address my self to the examination of the rest of your letter. A hard task, I confess;
Having said this, Sir, by Way of Answer to your ungospel - like preface, I shall next, (confining my self once more to your own method) address my self to the examination of the rest of your Letter. A hard task, I confess;
It being so much a Twinn-brother to your former ▪ where your evasions, and little escapes are so many, and your true substantiall, solid disproofes of any one thing which I have sayd either in my Sermons or Letters, so few, that, to deal freely with you, my Conflict with you hitherto hath been (and for ought I yet foresee is like to prove) like the Fight between Hercules, and the River Achelous; which when 'twas foyled in one shape, could tire the Conquerour, and presently provoke him to a fresh encounter in another. Sir, I could wish (without your strange endless multiplycation of Questions ) you would assume to your self some constant figure, wherein I might say, I grappled with a bodyed Adversary. But changing Form, as you do,
It being so much a twin-brother to your former ▪ where your evasions, and little escapes Are so many, and your true substantial, solid disproofs of any one thing which I have said either in my Sermons or Letters, so few, that, to deal freely with you, my Conflict with you hitherto hath been (and for ought I yet foresee is like to prove) like the Fight between Hercules, and the River Achelous; which when 'twas foiled in one shape, could tire the Conqueror, and presently provoke him to a fresh encounter in Another. Sir, I could wish (without your strange endless multiplycation of Questions) you would assume to your self Some constant figure, wherein I might say, I grappled with a bodied Adversary. But changing From, as you do,
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and putting me stil to prove that which you have not yet so much as seemingly confuted, pardon me (I beseech you) if I say, that my combate with you is not only like the combate of Hercules with that River, but like his, who thought he had entered Duell with a Gyant, and after much toyl found himself encountred by a cloud.
and putting me still to prove that which you have not yet so much as seemingly confuted, pardon me (I beseech you) if I say, that my combat with you is not only like the combat of Hercules with that River, but like his, who Thought he had entered Duel with a Giant, and After much toil found himself encountered by a cloud.
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My sermon, if you mark it, is not so confined either to Vanlings Draughts, or any other mans pencil, as to defend what ever their Irregular Fancies shal draw,
My sermon, if you mark it, is not so confined either to vanlings Draughts, or any other men pencil, as to defend what ever their Irregular Fancies shall draw,
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But if your conceipt were true, what doth your Logick infer, That because some Chappels are adorn'd with the Images of some of the persons in the Glorious Trinity,
But if your conceit were true, what does your Logic infer, That Because Some Chapels Are adorned with the Images of Some of the Persons in the Glorious Trinity,
how long hath the single - Topick of your meer Assertion been of such forcible Authority, that without any other proofe, you should think me obliged to hold such Images worthy of expulsion,
how long hath the single - Topic of your mere Assertion been of such forcible authority, that without any other proof, you should think me obliged to hold such Images worthy of expulsion,
because you say they are? Had you either from Scripture (the most perfect Rule for the Decision of Controversies ) or from Reason, (Though in your esteem but a peece of nature corrupted ) urged any one necessary Argument to prove them unlawful, or things which deserve to be called the Idolatry or Superstition of the place, perhaps being a servant to Demonstration, (though a favourite of the muses ) I should have been one of the first that should have cryed out for Reformation. But this not being done by you, nor indeed, possible to be done by any other, though my sermon speak not of any Image of any person in the Trinity, yet I conceive all Arguments, which shal strive to prove, that no picture of any person in the Trinity ought to be the Ornaments of a Church, or Chappell Window, will be as frail and brittle as the Glass in which they stand.
Because you say they Are? Had you either from Scripture (the most perfect Rule for the Decision of Controversies) or from Reason, (Though in your esteem but a piece of nature corrupted) urged any one necessary Argument to prove them unlawful, or things which deserve to be called the Idolatry or Superstition of the place, perhaps being a servant to Demonstration, (though a favourite of the muses) I should have been one of the First that should have cried out for Reformation. But this not being done by you, nor indeed, possible to be done by any other, though my sermon speak not of any Image of any person in the Trinity, yet I conceive all Arguments, which shall strive to prove, that no picture of any person in the Trinity ought to be the Ornament of a Church, or Chapel Window, will be as frail and brittle as the Glass in which they stand.
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Sir, I have said in my last Letter, and shal repeat it in this, that 'tis not you, but nature and the numerous places of Scripture, which forbid to make any picture of God, (either taken for the Divine essence common to all the three persons, or for the person of God the Father distinct from the other two ) which perswade me that any such picture (besides the impossibility ) is unlawfull. And therefore you need not have put your self to the uncecessary trouble to hang your Margin with quotations taken out of Bellarmine, or Aquinas; since all such quotations applyed to that which I have said and you have cited, which is, That all pictures of God are a breach of the second Commandent, do strike me no more,
Sir, I have said in my last letter, and shall repeat it in this, that it's not you, but nature and the numerous places of Scripture, which forbid to make any picture of God, (either taken for the Divine essence Common to all the three Persons, or for the person of God the Father distinct from the other two) which persuade me that any such picture (beside the impossibility) is unlawful. And Therefore you need not have put your self to the uncecessary trouble to hang your Margin with quotations taken out of Bellarmine, or Aquinas; since all such quotations applied to that which I have said and you have cited, which is, That all pictures of God Are a breach of the second Commandment, do strike me no more,
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then if I should enter conflict with those dead Arras-Captains, which in hangings threaten to assault the spectatour with imaginary, woven Lunces. Much less need you so superflously have called S. Paul from the third heaven to prove, that (because he once quoted this Greek Hemistick out of Aratas NONLATINALPHABET, that we are the Off-spring of God ) God is not like to gold, silver,
then if I should enter conflict with those dead Arras-Captains, which in hangings threaten to assault the spectator with imaginary, woven Lunces. Much less need you so superflously have called S. Paul from the third heaven to prove, that (Because he once quoted this Greek Hemistich out of Aratas, that we Are the Offspring of God) God is not like to gold, silver,
Since by that which I have said of him in my former Letter, you are obliged to testifie for me, that I have urged convincing reasons to prove he cannot be:
Since by that which I have said of him in my former letter, you Are obliged to testify for me, that I have urged convincing Reasons to prove he cannot be:
which Re•sons, as borrowed from nature and the schoolmen (with whom, sir, I hope you are not implacably fallen out) I do not urge as the supre•• Judges of what I there prove,
which Re•sons, as borrowed from nature and the Schoolmen (with whom, sir, I hope you Are not implacably fallen out) I do not urge as the supre•• Judges of what I there prove,
but as subservient mediums, which carry a musick and consent to that which God hath said of himself in the more perfect Rule of his Word. So that for doing this, to charge me (as you do) with the Study of the Lullian Art, is either nonsence in your Letter,
but as subservient mediums, which carry a music and consent to that which God hath said of himself in the more perfect Rule of his Word. So that for doing this, to charge me (as you do) with the Study of the Lullian Art, is either nonsense in your letter,
which is, That because Lullius, who wrote of Chymistry, was ca••ed Raymundus, I, who have read another Raymundus who wrote of Natural Theologie, am to be called a Lullianist, which is a Logick as wretched,
which is, That Because Lullius, who wrote of Chemistry, was ca••ed Raymundus, I, who have read Another Raymundus who wrote of Natural Theology, am to be called a lullianist, which is a Logic as wretched,
as if I should say, Mr Cheynell hath read Caserane, and hath made him a marginal note, Therefore he is a seeker of the Philosophers Stone, and studys to convert the Ore and Tin of the kingdom into Gold. Sir, Your Logick is not much mended when you say, That the Word (thereupon) is sometimes Illative, sometimes Ordinative. For ••ke it which way you will,
as if I should say, Mr Cheynell hath read Caserane, and hath made him a marginal note, Therefore he is a seeker of the Philosophers Stone, and studys to convert the Over and Tin of the Kingdom into Gold. Sir, Your Logic is not much mended when you say, That the Word (thereupon) is sometime Illative, sometime Ordinative. For ••ke it which weigh you will,
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As it stands in your last letter, you are bound to give me thanks as a Poet, that I deal• not with you as a Sophister, and proclaimed your infirmity for having utter'd a contradiction. Which contradiction, I confess, might have been avoyded by the insertion of the •••itled worder two, for w••• of which, yo• say my sophisticall Crititis•• is abortive,
As it Stands in your last Letter, you Are bound to give me thanks as a Poet, that I deal• not with you as a Sophister, and proclaimed your infirmity for having uttered a contradiction. Which contradiction, I confess, might have been avoided by the insertion of the •••itled worder two, for w••• of which, yo• say my sophistical Crititis•• is abortive,
Because, any such Draught not being possible to be made of him, but by resembling of him to something w•• is able to afford a Species or Idea to the sense, would, (besides the Falseness of it, where a gross material figure should represent a Pur• invisible Essence ) degrade him from the honour which he ought to hold in our Minds which are his Temple;
Because, any such Draught not being possible to be made of him, but by resembling of him to something w•• is able to afford a Species or Idea to the sense, would, (beside the Falseness of it, where a gross material figure should represent a Pur• invisible Essence) degrade him from the honour which he ought to hold in our Minds which Are his Temple;
in which Temple if he should hang up in a frame or table, which should contract and shrink him to the finite Model of a man o• any other creature, 'twere the way to convert him into an Idoll; and so (as I have often said) to sin against the second Commandement, which as it may be broken by spending our Worship upon false Gods; so it may also be broken by our false portraitures, and apprehensions, and venerations of the True.
in which Temple if he should hang up in a frame or table, which should contract and shrink him to the finite Model of a man o• any other creature, 'twere the Way to convert him into an Idol; and so (as I have often said) to sin against the second Commandment, which as it may be broken by spending our Worship upon false God's; so it may also be broken by our false portraitures, and apprehensions, and venerations of the True.
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and be lookt on by those who do only count them speechless Colours. The like may be said of Pictures made of Christ, which pretend to express no more of him then is capable of Represontation, and exceed not the lines and sy••etry of his Body and flesh. For I shal grant you that to Limb his Divinity, or to draw him in both his Natures, as he is NONLATINALPHABET God as well as man, is altogether impossible,
and be looked on by those who do only count them speechless Colours. The like may be said of Pictures made of christ, which pretend to express no more of him then is capable of Represontation, and exceed not the lines and sy••etry of his Body and Flesh. For I shall grant you that to Limb his Divinity, or to draw him in both his Nature's, as he is God as well as man, is altogether impossible,
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if he should enjoyn the Painter to limb his soul, as well as the proportion and feature of his Body, since the Soul is a thing so unexpressible to the sense, that it scarce affods any Idea to be understood by the mind. Sir,
if he should enjoin the Painter to limb his soul, as well as the proportion and feature of his Body, since the Soul is a thing so unexpressible to the sense, that it scarce affods any Idea to be understood by the mind. Sir,
if you have read Aristotles Books NONLATINALPHABET, you will there find, that the proper Objects of al the senses besides those of the Eye (though much grosser then Spirits or Souls ) cannot be brought into picture. A Painter may draw a flower but he cannot limb a scent. He may paint fire, but he cannot draw heat. He may furnish a table with an imaginary banquet, but he that should offer to raste of this banquet would find himself co•en'd.
if you have read Aristotle Books, you will there find, that the proper Objects of all the Senses beside those of the Eye (though much grosser then Spirits or Souls) cannot be brought into picture. A Painter may draw a flower but he cannot limb a scent. He may paint fire, but he cannot draw heat. He may furnish a table with an imaginary banquet, but he that should offer to raste of this banquet would find himself co•ened.
The Reason is, because Nature it self makes it impossible for the proper Object of one sense to be the Object of another; And finds not art or col•••s for any thing invisible; But only for those Superficie's, Symetry's, and sensible parts of Things, which are first capable to be seen, and then to be transcribed into a picture. But why that part of Christ, which after his Resurrection, (when it began to cease to be any longer a part of this visible World) was seen of above five hundred brethren at once, may not be painted;
The Reason is, Because Nature it self makes it impossible for the proper Object of one sense to be the Object of Another; And finds not art or col•••s for any thing invisible; But only for those Superficie's, Symmetry's, and sensible parts of Things, which Are First capable to be seen, and then to be transcribed into a picture. But why that part of christ, which After his Resurrection, (when it began to cease to be any longer a part of this visible World) was seen of above five hundred brothers At once, may not be painted;
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when he descended upon our Mediator Christ, and sate upon the heads of the Apostles ) may not be brought into imagery, I must confess to you, I am not sharp-witted enough to perceive.
when he descended upon our Mediator christ, and sat upon the Heads of the Apostles) may not be brought into imagery, I must confess to you, I am not sharp-witted enough to perceive.
Though this I shal freely say to you, (and pray do not call it Poetry) That to maintain that Christ thus in picture may be worshipt, is such a peece of Superstition, as not only teaches the simple to commit Idolatry,
Though this I shall freely say to you, (and pray do not call it Poetry) That to maintain that christ thus in picture may be worshipped, is such a piece of Superstition, as not only Teaches the simple to commit Idolatry,
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but endeavours to verifie upon him in colours the reproach which the calumniating Jews stuck upon his person and to make him thus painted, a Seducer of people.
but endeavours to verify upon him in colours the reproach which the calumniating jews stuck upon his person and to make him thus painted, a Seducer of people.
As for your fourth paragraph, (which assaults me the second time with an Argument without an Edge, which is, that the Sun and Images cannot be put in the scales of comparison in point of fitness to be preserved ) having in my former Letter already answered you, I shal not put my self to the needless trouble, the second time to confute it.
As for your fourth paragraph, (which assaults me the second time with an Argument without an Edge, which is, that the Sun and Images cannot be put in the scales of comparison in point of fitness to be preserved) having in my former letter already answered you, I shall not put my self to the needless trouble, the second time to confute it.
For answer to your Fifth, pray, Sir, read that part of my Sermon which you have corrupted into a quibble; And there you shal find, that what I say of clean linnen is not,
For answer to your Fifth, pray, Sir, read that part of my Sermon which you have corrupted into a quibble; And there you shall find, that what I say of clean linen is not,
which is, That by the same reason that you make Surplices to be supersti•ious because papists wear them, you may make Linnen also to be superstitious because papists shift; And so conclude cleanliness to be as unlawful as Surplices or Copes. Sir, this is NONLATINALPHABET;
which is, That by the same reason that you make Surplices to be supersti•ious Because Papists wear them, you may make Linen also to be superstitious Because Papists shift; And so conclude cleanliness to be as unlawful as Surplices or Copes. Sir, this is;
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Your sixth paragraph is a faggot bound up with more sticks in it, then you, without poetical Licence, can possibly gather from my Letter; where, Sir, I only promise you, (when ever you shal cal upon me) to derive to you all the ancient parts of our English Liturgy from Liturgy's which were in the Church before popery was born.
Your sixth paragraph is a faggot bound up with more sticks in it, then you, without poetical Licence, can possibly gather from my letter; where, Sir, I only promise you, (when ever you shall call upon me) to derive to you all the ancient parts of our English Liturgy from Liturgy's which were in the Church before popery was born.
Of which if any part be to be found in the Rubricks of the Church of Rom• your logick wil never be able to prove, that therefore 'tis to be rejected as trash and trumpery in •••rs.
Of which if any part be to be found in the Rubrics of the Church of Rom• your logic will never be able to prove, that Therefore it's to be rejected as trash and trumpery in •••rs.
as I told you before, do Davids Psalms cease to be a piece of Ga•••ical Scripture, because they are to be found bound up in the volumn with the Mass. Sir,
as I told you before, do Davids Psalms cease to be a piece of Ga•••ical Scripture, Because they Are to be found bound up in the Volume with the Mass. Sir,
if what ever is made use of by the Pope, or touches upon Rome, should be superstitious, the River Tiber would be the most blameable river in the World.
if what ever is made use of by the Pope, or touches upon Room, should be superstitious, the River Tiber would be the most blameable river in the World.
What you mean by a prelatical Faction here in England, or what they borrowed from the Rituals or pontifical of Rome, is exprest to me in such a mist of words (which sound big to the common people, and signifie nothing to the wise ) that I must confess my dulness, I do not understand you.
What you mean by a prelatical Faction Here in England, or what they borrowed from the Rituals or pontifical of Room, is expressed to me in such a missed of words (which found big to the Common people, and signify nothing to the wise) that I must confess my dullness, I do not understand you.
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If you mean, that they inserted any new peeces into the old garment of our Cōmon-prayer-book; and those borrowed from the Missal, or Breviary of Rome, I beleeve, Sir, (abstracting from those alterations made in the prayers for the King, Queen, and Royal issue, which the Death of Princes exacted, (unless,
If you mean, that they inserted any new Pieces into the old garment of our Common prayer book; and those borrowed from the Missal, or Breviary of Room, I believe, Sir, (abstracting from those alterations made in the Prayers for the King, Queen, and Royal issue, which the Death of Princes exacted, (unless,
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for constancy sake, you would have them allow of prayers for the dead; and in King Charls and Queen Mary's days, to pray still for King James and Queen Anne, which would be a piece of popery equal to the invocations of saints ) you will find nothing medern or of such new contrivance, as past not Bucers •xamen in the raign of Edward the sixth; And was confirmed b• Act of Parliament in the raign of Queen Elizabeth. In saying this in their defence, who had the ordering of such changes, I hope Sir, you will not so uncharitably think me imbark't in their Faction (which truly to me stil presented it self like the conceal'd Horses under ground, a fiction made to walk the streets, to terrifie the people ) as to perswade your self,
for constancy sake, you would have them allow of Prayers for the dead; and in King Charls and Queen Mary's days, to pray still for King James and Queen Anne, which would be a piece of popery equal to the invocations of Saints) you will find nothing medern or of such new contrivance, as passed not Bucers •xamen in the Reign of Edward the sixth; And was confirmed b• Act of Parliament in the Reign of Queen Elizabeth. In saying this in their defence, who had the ordering of such changes, I hope Sir, you will not so uncharitably think me embarked in their Faction (which truly to me still presented it self like the concealed Horses under ground, a fiction made to walk the streets, to terrify the people) as to persuade your self,
after my so many professions to fall a sacrifice to the Protestant Religion, that it can be either in the power of the Church or court of Rome, to tempt me from my Resolution: Which is, to go out of the world, in the same Religion I came in.
After my so many professions to fallen a sacrifice to the Protestant Religion, that it can be either in the power of the Church or court of Room, to tempt me from my Resolution: Which is, to go out of the world, in the same Religion I Come in.
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Sir, I gave warning in my last letter not to venture your writings upon the Arg•ment, which deceives none but very vulgar understandings, and which I in my Ser•on cal the Mother of mistakes; which is, from an accidental concurrence in some things to infer an outright similitude and agreement in all. Because Bellarmine says tradition is a better medium to prove somethings by,
Sir, I gave warning in my last Letter not to venture your writings upon the Arg•ment, which deceives none but very Vulgar understandings, and which I in my Ser•on call the Mother of mistakes; which is, from an accidental concurrence in Some things to infer an outright similitude and agreement in all. Because Bellarmine Says tradition is a better medium to prove somethings by,
which is the same, as if a Turk and a Christian saying that the Sun shines, you should infer, that the Christian is a Mahumetan, and for saying so, a Turk. I confess, you do not say we are both of the same Religion:
which is the same, as if a Turk and a Christian saying that the Sun shines, you should infer, that the Christian is a Mahometan, and for saying so, a Turk. I confess, you do not say we Are both of the same Religion:
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but that I, in preferring Tradition, which you your self, in your s•••••h paragraph, t•ow to be the Constant and uni•ersal Report of the Church ) befo•• he Testimony of the Spirit, speaking in the Word to the Consci••ce• of private men, am more profane than he. Heer, sir, you must not take it ill,
but that I, in preferring Tradition, which you your self, in your s•••••h paragraph, t•ow to be the Constant and uni•ersal Report of the Church) befo•• he Testimony of the Spirit, speaking in the Word to the Consci••ce• of private men, am more profane than he. Heer, sir, you must not take it ill,
if I expose you to the censure of being deservedly thought guilty of a double mistake. The one is, that if Bellarmine in this particular were in an Errour, and if I had out-spoken him in his Errour, yet the Laws of speech will not allow you to say, That in an unprof••• subject, either of us is profane; more heretical, or mistaken you might perhaps have said:
if I expose you to the censure of being deservedly Thought guilty of a double mistake. The one is, that if Bellarmine in this particular were in an Error, and if I had outspoken him in his Error, yet the Laws of speech will not allow you to say, That in an unprof••• Subject, either of us is profane; more heretical, or mistaken you might perhaps have said:
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But to call him positively, and me comparatively more profane, because we both hold, That a Drop is more liable to corruption then the Ocean, or the testimony of al ages of the Church is a fuller proof of the meaning of a text in Scripture, then the solitary Exposition of a man who can perswade none but himself, is as incongruous,
But to call him positively, and me comparatively more profane, Because we both hold, That a Drop is more liable to corruption then the Ocean, or the testimony of all ages of the Church is a fuller proof of the meaning of a text in Scripture, then the solitary Exposition of a man who can persuade none but himself, is as incongruous,
a greater Adulterer then He. Your other mistake is, That you confound the Spirit of God speaking in the Scripture with the private Spirit (that is) Reason, Humour, or Fancie of the person spoken to.
a greater Adulterer then He. Your other mistake is, That you confound the Spirit of God speaking in the Scripture with the private Spirit (that is) Reason, Humour, or Fancy of the person spoken to.
That is, so calculated, or Meriduanized to some select mind & understandings, that it shall hold the candle to them only, and leave All others in the Darke. But,
That is, so calculated, or Meriduanized to Some select mind & understandings, that it shall hold the candle to them only, and leave All Others in the Dark. But,
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if you will consent to the Comment of the most primitive Fathers on that Text, The meaning of it is, That as God by his Spirit did at first dictate the scripture, so he dictated it in those things which are necessary to Salvation, intelligible to all the world of M•n, who will addict their minds to read it.
if you will consent to the Comment of the most primitive Father's on that Text, The meaning of it is, That as God by his Spirit did At First dictate the scripture, so he dictated it in those things which Are necessary to Salvation, intelligible to all the world of M•n, who will addict their minds to read it.
It being therefore a Rule held out to all mankind, for them to order their lives and actions by and therefore universally intelligible to them, (it should else cease to be either Revelation or a Rule ) for you to hold that is •••not be understand without a second Revelation, made by the same Spirit that wrote it, to the private spirit of you the more-Cabinet Reader, is as if you should inclose and impale to your self the Ayre, or Sun-be••es; And should maintain that God hath placed the Sun in the firmament,
It being Therefore a Rule held out to all mankind, for them to order their lives and actions by and Therefore universally intelligible to them, (it should Else cease to be either Revelation or a Rule) for you to hold that is •••not be understand without a second Revelation, made by the same Spirit that wrote it, to the private Spirit of you the more-Cabinet Reader, is as if you should enclose and impale to your self the Air, or Sun-be••es; And should maintain that God hath placed the Sun in the firmament,
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and given you only eyes to see him In short, sir, 'tis to make as word, which was ordained to give light to all the World, a Dark Lanthorn, In which a candle shines to the use of none but him that bears it.
and given you only eyes to see him In short, sir, it's to make as word, which was ordained to give Light to all the World, a Dark Lantern, In which a candle shines to the use of none but him that bears it.
Your Eighth Paragraph being the third of your eleven Questions as also the close of your ninth, shall receive a latine Answer from me in the Divinity School.
Your Eighth Paragraph being the third of your eleven Questions as also the close of your ninth, shall receive a latin Answer from me in the Divinity School.
Your next Paragraph is againe the Hydra with repullulating Heads: Where, first, you put me to prove the purity of the Doctrine, Discipline, and Government in England. Which, being managed by a Prelaticall faction, whom, you say, I call the Church, was not excellent,
Your next Paragraph is again the Hydra with repullulating Heads: Where, First, you put me to prove the purity of the Doctrine, Discipline, and Government in England. Which, being managed by a Prelatical faction, whom, you say, I call the Church, was not excellent,
if I reckon from the yeare 1630. to 1640. As for the Doctrine, Sir, I told you before, that the Primitive Church it selfe was not free from Heresies. If therefore I should grant you (which I never shall, till you particularly tell me what those erroneous doctrines were) that some men in our Church were heterodox, nay hereticall in their opinions, yet I conceive it to be a very neere neighbour to heresie in you to charge the doctrines of persons upon the Kingdome or Church. Such Doctrines might be in England, (as you whether out of Choice or Luck have said) yet not by the Tenets or Doctrines of the Land: No more,
if I reckon from the year 1630. to 1640. As for the Doctrine, Sir, I told you before, that the Primitive Church it self was not free from Heresies. If Therefore I should grant you (which I never shall, till you particularly tell me what those erroneous doctrines were) that Some men in our Church were heterodox, nay heretical in their opinions, yet I conceive it to be a very near neighbour to heresy in you to charge the doctrines of Persons upon the Kingdom or Church. Such Doctrines might be in England, (as you whither out of Choice or Luck have said) yet not by the Tenets or Doctrines of the Land: No more,
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then if you should say, that because M. Yerbury and some few others hold the Equ•lity of the Saints with Christ, the whole Kingdome is a blasphemer, and was by you confuted at S. Maries. The publick doctrine of the Church of England I call none but that which was allowed to be so by an Act of Pa liament of England; and that, Sir, was contained in the 39. Articles. If any Prelate or inferiour Priest, for the Cicle of yeares you speak of, either held or taught any thing contrary to these, (as it will be hard I beleeve for you to instance in any of that side who did) you shall have my consent, in that particular, to count them no part of our Church. In the meane time, Sir, I beseech you be favourable to this Island; and think not that for ten yeares space 'twas hereticall in all the parts of it on this side Berwick. Withall, Sir, I desire (since you have assigned me an Epocha to reckon from) that you will compare the worst doctrines which wore the date of the Trojan Warre amongs us, with those which have since broke loose in the space of a Warre not halfe so long,
then if you should say, that Because M. Yerbury and Some few Others hold the Equ•lity of the Saints with christ, the Whole Kingdom is a blasphemer, and was by you confuted At S. Mary's. The public Doctrine of the Church of England I call none but that which was allowed to be so by an Act of Paul liament of England; and that, Sir, was contained in the 39. Articles. If any Prelate or inferior Priest, for the Cicle of Years you speak of, either held or taught any thing contrary to these, (as it will be hard I believe for you to instance in any of that side who did) you shall have my consent, in that particular, to count them no part of our Church. In the mean time, Sir, I beseech you be favourable to this Island; and think not that for ten Years Molle 'twas heretical in all the parts of it on this side Berwick. Withal, Sir, I desire (since you have assigned me an Epocha to reckon from) that you will compare the worst doctrines which wore the date of the Trojan War amongst us, with those which have since broke lose in the Molle of a War not half so long,
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so much heresie, as well as schisme, hath torne it asunder, that 'tis now become like Josephs coat imbrued in bloud, where no one piece carryes colour or resemblance to another.
so much heresy, as well as Schism, hath torn it asunder, that it's now become like Josephs coat imbrued in blood, where no one piece carries colour or resemblance to Another.
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As for the Discipl ne and Government of our Church, (if you would speak your conscience, and not your gall ) you would confess, that the frame and structure of it was raised from the most Primitive Modell that any Moderne Church under the Sunne was governed by.
As for the Disciple ne and Government of our Church, (if you would speak your conscience, and not your Gall) you would confess, that the frame and structure of it was raised from the most Primitive Model that any Modern Church under the Sun was governed by.
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A Government so well sized and fitted to the Civill Government of the Kingdome, that till the insurrection of some false Prophets, who presumed to offer strange fire before the Lord, and reduced a Land which flowed with milk and honey, into a wildernesse; they agreed together like the two Scripture-brothers, Moses and Aaron; and were the two banks which shut up schisme within its channell, and suffered not heresie or sedition to overflow their bounds. In short, Sir, I know not into what new forme this Kingdome may be moulded, or what new creation may creep forth from the strife-full heap of things, into which,
A Government so well sized and fitted to the Civil Government of the Kingdom, that till the insurrection of Some false prophets, who presumed to offer strange fire before the Lord, and reduced a Land which flowed with milk and honey, into a Wilderness; they agreed together like the two scripture-brothers, Moses and Aaron; and were the two banks which shut up Schism within its channel, and suffered not heresy or sedition to overflow their bounds. In short, Sir, I know not into what new Form this Kingdom may be moulded, or what new creation may creep forth from the strifeful heap of things, into which,
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But if the Civill State doe ever returne to its former selfe againe, your Presbyterian Government, which was brought forth at Geneva, and was since nursed up in Scotland, mingled with it, (if I be not deceived in the principles of that Government ) will be but a wild Vine ingrafted into a true. Vpon which unequall, disproportioned Incorporation, we may as well expect to gather Figs of Thistles, or grapes of thornes, as that the one should grow so Southerne, the other so Northerne; that one harmonious, musicall Body should arise from them thus joyned. What Errors in Government or Discipline were committed by the Prelates, I know not;
But if the Civil State do ever return to its former self again, your Presbyterian Government, which was brought forth At Geneva, and was since nursed up in Scotland, mingled with it, (if I be not deceived in the principles of that Government) will be but a wild Vine ingrafted into a true. Upon which unequal, disproportioned Incorporation, we may as well expect to gather Figs of Thistles, or grapes of thorns, as that the one should grow so Southern, the other so Northern; that one harmonious, musical Body should arise from them thus joined. What Errors in Government or Discipline were committed by the Prelates, I know not;
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In the meane time, Sir, to call them, or those, who submitted to their Government, A Prelaticall faction, because the then wheels of their Government moved with an unanimous undisturbance, is, I beleeve, a calumny, which you would faine fasten upon them, provoked (I suppose) by the description which I have made of the conspiracy of the False Prophets of Jerusalem in my Sermon. I must deal freely with you, Sir, do but probably make it appear to me, that this Faction in your letter was like the Conspiracy in my Sermon; Do but prove to me, that the Prelates devoured soules; That they took to themselves the Treasure, and precious things of the Land; That to effect this, they kindled the first spark towards a Civil War; & then blew it into such a flame, as could not be quencht but with the bloud of Husbands ravisht from their Wives, and the slaughter of parents prest and ravisht from their children: Doe but prove to me that they made one widdow, or built their Honours upon the ruine or calamity of one Orphane; Lastly, do but prove to me that the Priests (whom you make to be the lower orbe of their Faction ) did so mingle,
In the mean time, Sir, to call them, or those, who submitted to their Government, A Prelatical faction, Because the then wheels of their Government moved with an unanimous undisturbance, is, I believe, a calumny, which you would feign fasten upon them, provoked (I suppose) by the description which I have made of the Conspiracy of the False prophets of Jerusalem in my Sermon. I must deal freely with you, Sir, do but probably make it appear to me, that this Faction in your Letter was like the conspiracy in my Sermon; Do but prove to me, that the Prelates devoured Souls; That they took to themselves the Treasure, and precious things of the Land; That to Effect this, they kindled the First spark towards a Civil War; & then blew it into such a flame, as could not be quenched but with the blood of Husbands ravished from their Wives, and the slaughter of Parents pressed and ravished from their children: Do but prove to me that they made one widow, or built their Honours upon the ruin or calamity of one Orphan; Lastly, do but prove to me that the Priests (whom you make to be the lower orb of their Faction) did so mingle,
and profane, or that in complyance with them, they saw vanity, and divined lyes to the people, and I shall think them capable of all the hard language, which you or others have for some yeares heapt upon them.
and profane, or that in compliance with them, they saw vanity, and divined lies to the people, and I shall think them capable of all the hard language, which you or Others have for Some Years heaped upon them.
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Till then, Sir, pray mistake not Concrets for their Abstracts; nor charge the faults of persons, upon the innocency of their functions. Prelacy is an Order so well rooted in the Scripture, though now deprived of all its Branches in this Kingdome, that I verily perswade my selfe, that as Caiaphas in the Gospell when he spoke Prophecy, perceived not himself at that time to be a Prophet; so you (over-rul'd by the guidance of a higher power ) have in this Paragraph exceedingly praised Prelacy, whilst you laboured to revile it.
Till then, Sir, pray mistake not Concretes for their Abstracts; nor charge the Faults of Persons, upon the innocency of their functions. Prelacy is an Order so well rooted in the Scripture, though now deprived of all its Branches in this Kingdom, that I verily persuade my self, that as Caiaphas in the Gospel when he spoke Prophecy, perceived not himself At that time to be a Prophet; so you (overruled by the guidance of a higher power) have in this Paragraph exceedingly praised Prelacy, while you laboured to revile it.
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For either it must be Non-sense, or a very great Encomium of it, when you say, that as long as it enjoyed a root here in this Kingdome, it had not onely a destructive influence into the evils of the Church,
For either it must be Nonsense, or a very great Encomium of it, when you say, that as long as it enjoyed a root Here in this Kingdom, it had not only a destructive influence into the evils of the Church,
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If the Influence of it were so destructive of evils, (as indeed it was) pray with what Logick can you say, that Salus populi quae suprema lex est, did compell the Parliament to extirpate a thing so preservative and full of Antidote both to Church and State?
If the Influence of it were so destructive of evils, (as indeed it was) pray with what Logic can you say, that Salus People Quae Supreme lex est, did compel the Parliament to extirpate a thing so preservative and full of Antidote both to Church and State?
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Sir, if mens styles & denominations be to be given to them by the place & clymate where they are borne & bred, I shall grant you are an English, nay an Oxford Christian. But if you preach,
Sir, if men's styles & denominations be to be given to them by the place & climate where they Are born & bred, I shall grant you Are an English, nay an Oxford Christian. But if you preach,
& maintain, that Religion as to be propagated by the Sword, I must tell you, that an English Presbyter may in this case be a Turkish Prophet; and that though his Text be chosen from the Gospel, yet the Doctrine raised from it, may be a piece of the Alchoran. I shall allow you to say that the Protestants in Ireland had a Right to the defence of the free exercise of their Religion against the furious assaults of the bloody Rebels.
& maintain, that Religion as to be propagated by the Sword, I must tell you, that an English Presbyter may in this case be a Turkish Prophet; and that though his Text be chosen from the Gospel, yet the Doctrine raised from it, may be a piece of the Alcoran. I shall allow you to say that the Protestants in Ireland had a Right to the defence of the free exercise of their Religion against the furious assaults of the bloody Rebels.
But when you tell me that Christ is King of Nations as well as King of Saints, (which I shall grant you) and say, that as one of his wayes to make Proselytes is by the perswasion of his Word and Spirit;
But when you tell me that christ is King of nations as well as King of Saints, (which I shall grant you) and say, that as one of his ways to make Proselytes is by the persuasion of his Word and Spirit;
so, if that will not do, his other way to break the power of Antichrist, that is, (as I conceive you mean) to convert men from Popery, is by civill and naturall meanes that is, (if you meane any thing) to compell them to be Protestants by the Sword; Me-thinks I am at Mecha, and heare a piece of Turcisme preacht to me by one of Mahomets Priests. In short, Sir,
so, if that will not do, his other Way to break the power of Antichrist, that is, (as I conceive you mean) to convert men from Popery, is by civil and natural means that is, (if you mean any thing) to compel them to be Protestants by the Sword; Methinks I am At Mecha, and hear a piece of Turcisme preached to me by one of Mahomets Priests. In short, Sir,
But doe you prove demonstratively, not jealously, to me, that the Queene and her Agents had an intent to extirpate the Protestant Religion, and to plant Popery by the Sword; and the Army that should bring that designe to pass, shall, in my opinion, be styled an Army, not of Papists, but of baptized Janizaries. As for your bidding me dispute the right of taking up Armes in such a case, with the Parliament; First, I must desire you to accept the Answer which Favroinus the Philosopher gave to a friend of his, who askt him,
But do you prove demonstratively, not jealously, to me, that the Queen and her Agents had an intent to extirpate the Protestant Religion, and to plant Popery by the Sword; and the Army that should bring that Design to pass, shall, in my opinion, be styled an Army, not of Papists, but of baptised Janizaries. As for your bidding me dispute the right of taking up Arms in such a case, with the Parliament; First, I must desire you to accept the Answer which Favroinus the Philosopher gave to a friend of his, who asked him,
why he would let Adrian the Emperour have the better of him in a Dispute; I am loth to enter into an Argumentation with those who command Thirty Legions. Next, Sir,
why he would let Adrian the Emperor have the better of him in a Dispute; I am loath to enter into an Argumentation with those who command Thirty Legions. Next, Sir,
if I were of consideration enough to be heard to speak publickly to that Great Assembly, having first kist my weapon, I should not doubt, with all the respective liberty, which might witness to them that I strive not to diminish the rights of their power, but to defend the truth of my cause, to tell them, that to come into the field with an armed Gospel, is not the way chosen by Christ to make Proselites.
if I were of consideration enough to be herd to speak publicly to that Great Assembly, having First kissed my weapon, I should not doubt, with all the respective liberty, which might witness to them that I strive not to diminish the rights of their power, but to defend the truth of my cause, to tell them, that to come into the field with an armed Gospel, is not the Way chosen by christ to make Proselytes.
If this be an error or mis-perswasion in me, shew me but one undenyable demonstration of the Spirit to disprove it, besides your unto picall perswasion of your selfe to the contrary,
If this be an error or mispersuasion in me, show me but one undeniable demonstration of the Spirit to disprove it, beside your unto picall persuasion of your self to the contrary,
and, without any farther conference, or dispute in this point, I shall acknowledge my selfe your convert, and be most glad to be convinced. In the mean time, Sir, you are obliged, (though I be in your opinion in an error ) to think more nobly of me, then of those Cowards of your side, who durst not speak Truth in a time of danger, when you see me, in the like time, such a resolute Champion (as you conceive) for the wrong.
and, without any farther conference, or dispute in this point, I shall acknowledge my self your convert, and be most glad to be convinced. In the mean time, Sir, you Are obliged, (though I be in your opinion in an error) to think more nobly of me, then of those Cowards of your side, who durst not speak Truth in a time of danger, when you see me, in the like time, such a resolute Champion (as you conceive) for the wrong.
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Sir, 'tis one of the prayses of a good picture to be drawne so livingly, that every one in the room that beholds it, shall thinke it looks only on him; 'Tis just so with some Texts in Scripture, and some parts of morall Philosophy; which when they speake very Characterizingly of an irregular passion, or vice, if they meet with a man Conscious, and one subject to such passions, remember him of his guilt, and prick his minde as if he only were signified by that which was writ to all the World. By your charging me that I dealt more sharply with you then I should, you give me cause to suspect, that my Letter proved such a picture to you;
Sir, it's one of the praises of a good picture to be drawn so livingly, that every one in the room that beholds it, shall think it looks only on him; It's just so with Some Texts in Scripture, and Some parts of moral Philosophy; which when they speak very characterizingly of an irregular passion, or vice, if they meet with a man Conscious, and one Subject to such passion, Remember him of his guilt, and prick his mind as if he only were signified by that which was writ to all the World. By your charging me that I dealt more sharply with you then I should, you give me cause to suspect, that my letter proved such a picture to you;
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and you to your guilty selfe seemed a person so concerned. The words of bitterness which you have layed together in one heape, are composed of such Language, as upon your twentieth perufall you will never be able to finde in my Letter. Sir, Christianity, and my profession (however you in your letter forgot both ) have taught me not to returne Vomit for Vomit. And the love which I beare to to the Civility of expression, would never suffer me to be so revilingly broad. If I made use of one of Seneca's Epistles, or of Tully's Paradoxes, or Horace 's poeticall Controversies, and if you would apply what they said of Ambition, Pride, or Choller to your self, certainly, Sir, you have no reason to call this the Luxuriancy of my wit. And thereupon to inferre these provocative conclusious; that my wit is wanton, therefore I am effeminate. That I am superstitious, therefore lascivious too.
and you to your guilty self seemed a person so concerned. The words of bitterness which you have laid together in one heap, Are composed of such Language, as upon your twentieth perufall you will never be able to find in my letter. Sir, Christianity, and my profession (however you in your Letter forgotten both) have taught me not to return Vomit for Vomit. And the love which I bear to to the Civility of expression, would never suffer me to be so revilingly broad. If I made use of one of Seneca's Epistles, or of Tully's Paradoxes, or Horace is poetical Controversies, and if you would apply what they said of Ambition, Pride, or Choler to your self, Certainly, Sir, you have no reason to call this the Luxuriancy of my wit. And thereupon to infer these provocative conclusious; that my wit is wanton, Therefore I am effeminate. That I am superstitious, Therefore lascivious too.
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or despise those that are more weake, so (without sparing me at all) I doe once more challenge you to prove, that the wantonness of it hath betrayed me to the loose Conversation of any that are light. Lastly, Sir, I hope you doe not thing I have so much of the vaine glory, or selfe-conceitedness of those Reverend Hypocrites in the Gospell in me, who were able to boast of their long Prayers, and broad phylactaries, and of their fasting twice a weeke, that I will offer to thinke my selfe more temperate then the Apostles.
or despise those that Are more weak, so (without sparing me At all) I do once more challenge you to prove, that the wantonness of it hath betrayed me to the lose Conversation of any that Are Light. Lastly, Sir, I hope you do not thing I have so much of the vain glory, or Self-conceitedness of those Reverend Hypocrites in the Gospel in me, who were able to boast of their long Prayers, and broad phylactaries, and of their fasting twice a Week, that I will offer to think my self more temperate then the Apostles.
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Yet, Sir, I dare once more challenge you, & the precisest of your inspired informers, to prove me at any time guilty of the breach of the Text you quote against Surfeiting, and Drunkenness. Luk. 21.34.
Yet, Sir, I Dare once more challenge you, & the Precisest of your inspired informers, to prove me At any time guilty of the breach of the Text you quote against Surfeiting, and drunkenness. Luk. 21.34.
That part of your Paragraph, therefore, which ends in exhortation, is a piece of Homily, which returnes to you, to be made use of towards some other on the next last Wednesday of the month, where Fasting, and Sobriety will be seasonable The•ams.
That part of your Paragraph, Therefore, which ends in exhortation, is a piece of Homily, which returns to you, to be made use of towards Some other on the next last Wednesday of the Monn, where Fasting, and Sobriety will be seasonable The•ams.
Yet Sir, all they who (maintaining it to be absolute ) doe revive the fiction of the three destinies, where one holds the Distaffe on which the Thred of every mans Fate is spun, and doe preach a piece of Zeno's Philosophy for a piece of Saint Paul's Epistles, can have no reason to accuse me of a jest, because I apply'd a spindle to the Distaffe, on which mens fates are rolled. Sir, in plainer termes,
Yet Sir, all they who (maintaining it to be absolute) do revive the fiction of the three destinies, where one holds the Distaff on which the Thread of every men Fate is spun, and do preach a piece of Zeno's Philosophy for a piece of Saint Paul's Epistles, can have no reason to accuse me of a jest, Because I applied a spindle to the Distaff, on which men's fates Are rolled. Sir, in plainer terms,
as absolute Reprobation, is a piece of Stoicisme, which was never held to be Christian, till it crept forth into the Church from the same fancy, which was the wombe in which the Presbyterian Government was formed,
as absolute Reprobation, is a piece of Stoicism, which was never held to be Christian, till it crept forth into the Church from the same fancy, which was the womb in which the Presbyterian Government was formed,
so me thinks, Lucian, Sir, (how cheaply soever you think of him, or me, for having closed my last letter to you with a piece of his Nigrinus ) in his confutation of this Heathenish Errour (which hath made so many hang themselves) urgeth Arguments which would become one of the Fathers of the Church. I know not whether you have read his NONLATINALPHABET.
so me thinks, Lucian, Sir, (how cheaply soever you think of him, or me, for having closed my last Letter to you with a piece of his Nigrinus) in his confutation of this Heathenish Error (which hath made so many hang themselves) urges Arguments which would become one of the Father's of the Church. I know not whither you have read his.
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1. That all they who lye under the Inflexibility of it, being tyed by an unalterable necessity to do what they do, can in no reason be rewarded if they do well, nor with any Justice be punisht if they do ill. Next, that the Sinnes which they commit, (if they cannot but commit them) are not to be called their Sinnes, but the Sinnes of that Decree which laid this necessity upon them.
1. That all they who lie under the Inflexibility of it, being tied by an unalterable necessity to do what they do, can in no reason be rewarded if they do well, nor with any justice be punished if they do ill. Next, that the Sinnes which they commit, (if they cannot but commit them) Are not to be called their Sins, but the Sinnes of that decree which laid this necessity upon them.
And, therefore, Thirdly, that a murtherer (thus predestined) if he should be arraigned, may say to any Judge thus stoically perswaded. Why doe you accuse me? Pray call my Destiny to the Bar; and do not sentence me, but my fate to the Racke and Wheel.
And, Therefore, Thirdly, that a murderer (thus predestined) if he should be arraigned, may say to any Judge thus stoically persuaded. Why do you accuse me? Pray call my Destiny to the Bar; and do not sentence me, but my fate to the Rack and Wheel.
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I was but an oversway'd Instrument in this Murther; and was but such an Engine to my Destiny, as my Sword was to me. Though this were spoken by a Heathen, only in disproof of Fate, yet since Saint Chrysostome in more then three Sermons had said the same things in disproofe of absolute Reprobation, I hope, sir,
I was but an overswayed Instrument in this Murder; and was but such an Engine to my Destiny, as my Sword was to me. Though this were spoken by a Heathen, only in disproof of Fate, yet since Saint Chrysostom in more then three Sermons had said the same things in disproof of absolute Reprobation, I hope, sir,
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neither Calvin, nor Piscator, have so mistaught you to understand Saint Paul, as from any Epistler of his to conclude peremptorily, that any without their desert, are given up to a Reprobate minde, and finally struck & necessitated to a remediless impenitence. The 9. Chap. of the Romans, I have long since consider'd,
neither calvin, nor Piscator, have so mistaught you to understand Saint Paul, as from any Epistler of his to conclude peremptorily, that any without their desert, Are given up to a Reprobate mind, and finally struck & necessitated to a remediless impenitence. The 9. Chap. of the Roman, I have long since considered,
And to deale freely with you, the best Commentator I ever yet met with to lead me through the darkness of it, was another place of Scripture or two set in presence,
And to deal freely with you, the best Commentator I ever yet met with to led me through the darkness of it, was Another place of Scripture or two Set in presence,
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and scale with this, both which joyned, me thought, made perfectly the Cloud which guided the Jewes through the Wilderness, which was a Cloud to the Aegyptians, but a pillar of fire to the Israelites. Sir, I know that neither Saint Paul hath written Contradictions, nor any other of the Apostles written that which is Contradictory to Saint Paul, Sir, I presume,
and scale with this, both which joined, me Thought, made perfectly the Cloud which guided the Jews through the Wilderness, which was a Cloud to the egyptians, but a pillar of fire to the Israelites. Sir, I know that neither Saint Paul hath written Contradictions, nor any other of the Apostles written that which is Contradictory to Saint Paul, Sir, I presume,
also, that Aristotles Book NONLATINALPHABET hath not so •orsaken your memory, but you know that an Ʋniversall Affirmative, and a particular Negative are a perfect Contradiction, and cannot both be true. Here, then, stands the case.
also, that Aristotle Book hath not so •orsaken your memory, but you know that an Ʋniversall Affirmative, and a particular Negative Are a perfect Contradiction, and cannot both be true. Here, then, Stands the case.
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You, building your Opinion upon the NONLATINALPHABET or great depth of the ninth Chapter to the Romans, inferre from thence that God gives Repentance only to some few, whose peremptory will 'tis that they only shall be saved. Saint Paul in his first Epistle to Timothy, Chapter 2. vers. 4. gives us a line and plummet to sound this Depth; and saves expresly, That 'tis the will of God that all men should be saved.
You, building your Opinion upon the or great depth of the ninth Chapter to the Roman, infer from thence that God gives Repentance only to Some few, whose peremptory will it's that they only shall be saved. Saint Paul in his First Epistle to Timothy, Chapter 2. vers. 4. gives us a line and plummet to found this Depth; and saves expressly, That it's the will of God that all men should be saved.
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Between these propositions, 'tis his will that all shall, and 'tis his will that only a few shall be saved, there is no Medium, in which they may be reconciled;
Between these propositions, it's his will that all shall, and it's his will that only a few shall be saved, there is no Medium, in which they may be reconciled;
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but one of them must necessarily be true, the other false. This, then, being so, I have alwayes held it safer to build my Faith upon those cleare places of the Scripture, which have no vaile before their face, then those which are mysterious, and lead me to a NONLATINALPHABET over which I stand amazed, but cannot from thence infer. I doe farther profess to you, that I am not so wedded to this or any other Speculative Opinion, but that,
but one of them must necessarily be true, the other false. This, then, being so, I have always held it safer to built my Faith upon those clear places of the Scripture, which have no veil before their face, then those which Are mysterious, and led me to a over which I stand amazed, but cannot from thence infer. I do farther profess to you, that I am not so wedded to this or any other Speculative Opinion, but that,
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but there have been two with us, who have taken away as many Copes and guilt can lesticks, as if they had been superstitious. Sir, 'tis no wonder to me that in our times silver should be Popery; Or that Church utensills if they be Gold should be called superstition. But certainly, Sir, 'twas a great misinformation to send them to search for Copes or things of value to my poor Protestant Chamber; where there never was a Cope, though, perhaps, they might have found a long-difused Surplice, there.
but there have been two with us, who have taken away as many Copes and guilt can lesticks, as if they had been superstitious. Sir, it's no wonder to me that in our times silver should be Popery; Or that Church utensils if they be Gold should be called Superstition. But Certainly, Sir, 'twas a great misinformation to send them to search for Copes or things of valve to my poor Protestant Chamber; where there never was a Cope, though, perhaps, they might have found a long-difused Surplice, there.
And as for Idolls of price, if they had searcht my purse, I beleeve that all the popery, which, in these impoverishing Times, they could have found in it, cast into the fire, like the Jewish Earerings, would neither have come forth a Silver Crucifix; much less so wealthy an Idoll as a Golden Calfe.
And as for Idols of price, if they had searched my purse, I believe that all the popery, which, in these impoverishing Times, they could have found in it, cast into the fire, like the Jewish Earrings, would neither have come forth a Silver Crucifix; much less so wealthy an Idol as a Golden Calf.
Sir, since at length I understand you, that by agreeing upon the true state of the questions before we dispute them, you mean that we should agree upon the termes in which they are to be held, I am very ready to comply with you in that reasonable particular.
Sir, since At length I understand you, that by agreeing upon the true state of the questions before we dispute them, you mean that we should agree upon the terms in which they Are to be held, I am very ready to comply with you in that reasonable particular.
But to accept of any, either of your eleven English, or yout three Latine questions, in the terms in which you have formed them, I can by no meanes consent.
But to accept of any, either of your eleven English, or yout three Latin questions, in the terms in which you have formed them, I can by no means consent.
Which is, that by making them as Popish questions as you can, (especially one of them) where you insert the words Missall, Breviary, and Pontificall ) words odious to the people,
Which is, that by making them as Popish questions as you can, (especially one of them) where you insert the words Missal, Breviary, and Pontifical) words odious to the people,
though I have more then once profest my selfe ready to fall a sacrifice in the defence of the Protestant Religion, yet that this was but a disguise which concealed my hypocrisie, 'till provoked I were put to defend the superstitions of the Church of Rome. Sir, I know upon what lesser ground• then this, some in our credulous times have been unjustly called Papists. Next, Sir,
though I have more then once professed my self ready to fallen a sacrifice in the defence of the Protestant Religion, yet that this was but a disguise which concealed my hypocrisy, till provoked I were put to defend the superstitions of the Church of Room. Sir, I know upon what lesser ground• then this, Some in our credulous times have been unjustly called Papists. Next, Sir,
if I should hold them affirmatively, with their fares thus looking towards Popery, and should bring them thus clothed in your termes of superstition into the Divinity Schoole, I doubt very much whether the publickness of the Defence may not draw an aspersion not onely upon me, and the Moderator, (if he will vouchsafe to sit in the Chaire whilst we quarrell) but upon the Whole already too much defame Ʋniversity, which such as you have from numerous Pulpits called long since Ropishly affected; But if it should allow of such a Dispute, 'twould lend fuell to your calumnies, and be endangered to be no longer thought P•pish, but 〈 ◊ 〉 right a Papist. Thirdly, Sir, your first and last Question (if they were purged of their odious termes ) cannot p••liquely be maintained without some affront to the Parliament, who by one Ordina••• have put down the Common-prayer-book, by another Epis••p••y. If therefore, under your termes, I should p•l••quely stand up in defence of them, you had need procure a third Ordinance, which when I have done may keep me safe.
if I should hold them affirmatively, with their fares thus looking towards Popery, and should bring them thus clothed in your terms of Superstition into the Divinity School, I doubt very much whither the publicness of the Defence may not draw an aspersion not only upon me, and the Moderator, (if he will vouchsafe to fit in the Chair while we quarrel) but upon the whole already too much defame Ʋniversity, which such as you have from numerous Pulpits called long since Ropishly affected; But if it should allow of such a Dispute, 'twould lend fuel to your calumnies, and be endangered to be no longer Thought P•pish, but 〈 ◊ 〉 right a Papist. Thirdly, Sir, your First and last Question (if they were purged of their odious terms) cannot p••liquely be maintained without Some affront to the Parliament, who by one Ordina••• have put down the Common prayer book, by Another Epis••p••y. If Therefore, under your terms, I should p•l••quely stand up in defence of them, you had need procure a third Ordinance, which when I have done may keep me safe.
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Yet, Sir, to as•••e you that this is no evasion in me to decline a dispute, because my Sermon •as the occasion of your challenge of me in the Pulpit, and of this private conference betweene •s since;
Yet, Sir, to as•••e you that this is no evasion in me to decline a dispute, Because my Sermon •as the occasion of your challenge of me in the Pulpit, and of this private conference between •s since;
Since also you allow me the liberty of alteration, and to adde my stroke to the A••ill on which the questions to be disputed on between us are to receive the last form, and shape, in which, with least offence, and scan•••l, they may walk into the publique. Lastly,
Since also you allow me the liberty of alteration, and to add my stroke to the A••ill on which the questions to be disputed on between us Are to receive the last from, and shape, in which, with least offence, and scan•••l, they may walk into the public. Lastly,
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since the three Latine Questions you sent me are dree passages of my Sermon, but so corrupted from themselves, as shew them to have been once p•r••y P••••stant, but passing through your hands have degenerated, and ••••ed themselves with a to-be-suspected robe of Popery, the nearest way I knew for us to agree upon their true state, is to deale with them as the Bishops at the Reformation dealt with the Religion of the Church of Rome; that is, p•rge them from their corruptions, and restore them to the Primitive rule from whence they have digrest.
since the three Latin Questions you sent me Are dree passages of my Sermon, but so corrupted from themselves, as show them to have been once p•r••y P••••stant, but passing through your hands have degenerated, and ••••ed themselves with a to-be-suspected robe of Popery, the nearest Way I knew for us to agree upon their true state, is to deal with them as the Bishops At the Reformation dealt with the Religion of the Church of Room; that is, p•rge them from their corruptions, and restore them to the Primitive Rule from whence they have digressed.
An Liturgia Ang•ican• ideò elimin••da sie, qui• ••••ullas partes ab Ecclesiâ 〈 ◊ 〉 na•â 〈 ◊ 〉 est, Neg. Christi, Sa••t•rum { que } imagines in Reformater.
an Liturgiam Ang•ican• ideò elimin••da sie, qui• ••••ullas parts ab Ecclesiâ 〈 ◊ 〉 na•â 〈 ◊ 〉 est, Neg. Christ, Sa••t•rum { que } imagines in Reformater.
Eccles•is ••itè r•ti•eri p•ssi•t, Aff. Regimen Ecclesia Anglic•na per Epis••p•s s•t Antichristianum, ex eo quòd Ecclesia Romana (quā nonnulli sedem Antichristi statuunt) sic gubernatur, Neg.
Eccles•is ••itè r•ti•eri p•ssi•t, Aff. Regimen Ecclesia Anglic•na per Epis••p•s s•t Antichristian, ex eo quòd Ecclesia Roman (quā Nonnulli sedem Antichrist statuunt) sic gubernatur, Neg.
and, like a generous Adversary, will promise me, that neither for sen•ing of them to you now, nor for defending them hereafter, I shall be question'd, (for this I require no other security but your word ) I will not faile (God assisting me) to meet you in the Divinity Schoole at Ʋniversity weapons, when ever you shall think fit to call upon me;
and, like a generous Adversary, will promise me, that neither for sen•ing of them to you now, nor for defending them hereafter, I shall be questioned, (for this I require no other security but your word) I will not fail (God assisting me) to meet you in the Divinity School At Ʋniversity weapons, when ever you shall think fit to call upon me;
and to bring with you those Arguments, which, you say, you reserve for that place, and in your two letters have not vouchsafed to afford me, who doe daily pray (for I begin to be weary of fighting with shades ) that this unnecessary conflict may at length end in a Christian peace between you the opponent, and me the defender of From my Chamber this Afternoone, Feb. 4. 1646. The Sermon against False Prophets, J. MAYNE.
and to bring with you those Arguments, which, you say, you reserve for that place, and in your two letters have not vouchsafed to afford me, who do daily pray (for I begin to be weary of fighting with shades) that this unnecessary conflict may At length end in a Christian peace between you the opponent, and me the defender of From my Chamber this Afternoon, Feb. 4. 1646. The Sermon against False prophets, J. MAYNE.
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how, having hitherto tolerably borne his rougher assaults, I should preserve my self from being conquer'd by his civilities. Which I confess, have such a forcible charme upon my nature, softend, and tutor'd to it by Religion; that the World cannot afford an Enemy, who shall raise such a tempest of persecution against me,
how, having hitherto tolerably born his rougher assaults, I should preserve my self from being conquered by his civilities. Which I confess, have such a forcible charm upon my nature, softend, and tutored to it by Religion; that the World cannot afford an Enemy, who shall raise such a tempest of persecution against me,
but that I shall be ready to afford him my Imbraces, and Armes, if he will be content to be received there in a calme. I do farther confess, that M. Cheynell, by undertaking to secure me against the danger which might have followed a publique dispute, hath not onely verified my expression,
but that I shall be ready to afford him my Embraces, and Arms, if he will be content to be received there in a Cam. I do farther confess, that M. Cheynell, by undertaking to secure me against the danger which might have followed a public dispute, hath not only verified my expression,
and shewne himselfe a generous adversary, but by that engagement of himself, hath made me see, what reason I have to complaine of my hard fortune, which hath left me onely the will, and not the power, to be in the like kind,
and shown himself a generous adversary, but by that engagement of himself, hath made me see, what reason I have to complain of my hard fortune, which hath left me only the will, and not the power, to be in the like kind,
You may be confident that the Messenger was not sent by me, because he return'd without you and without his fees. I never writ up one Letter to London that did in the least measure reflect upon you;
You may be confident that the Messenger was not sent by me, Because he returned without you and without his fees. I never writ up one letter to London that did in the least measure reflect upon you;
I doe here under my 〈 ◊ 〉 b•nd assure you, that if you be questioned for defending these Propositions in a Scholasticall way, (you know reproaches are not Scholasticke ) in the publique Schools, I will answer for you;
I do Here under my 〈 ◊ 〉 b•nd assure you, that if you be questioned for defending these Propositions in a Scholastical Way, (you know Reproaches Are not Scholastic) in the public Schools, I will answer for you;
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the Parliament will not question you for any learned nationall debate about Prelates or the Common-Prayer-Booke, for the satisfaction of your self and others.
the Parliament will not question you for any learned national debate about Prelates or the Common-Prayer-Booke, for the satisfaction of your self and Others.
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I will meet you if you please, at the Doctor of the Chaire his lodgings to morrow about two of the clock in the afternoon; I doubt not but by his advice we shall, agree upon termes fit to express the points in Controversie; if you like the proposall be pleased to send your approbation of it in two lines by this bearer to ▪ Mert. Coll. Feb. 4. 1646. Your friend to serve you, FRAN: CHEYNELL.
I will meet you if you please, At the Doctor of the Chair his lodgings to morrow about two of the clock in the afternoon; I doubt not but by his Advice we shall, agree upon terms fit to express the points in Controversy; if you like the proposal be pleased to send your approbation of it in two lines by this bearer to ▪ Mert Coll. Feb. 4. 1646. Your friend to serve you, FRANCE: CHEYNELL.
To this Letter (which was the last I received from him) by the same Messenger that brought it, I return'd this Answer, which was the last he received from me. SIR,
To this letter (which was the last I received from him) by the same Messenger that brought it, I returned this Answer, which was the last he received from me. SIR,
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I shall (God willing) meet you to morrow at your houre, at the Doctor of the Chaire's Lodging. Where if you be as willing to submit to the termes which he shall think fit to put the Questions in, which we are to dispute upon as I shall be, there will be no variance ▪ between us there,
I shall (God willing) meet you to morrow At your hour, At the Doctor of the Chaire's Lodging. Where if you be as willing to submit to the terms which he shall think fit to put the Questions in, which we Are to dispute upon as I shall be, there will be no variance ▪ between us there,
nor shall we I hope, bring any with us from the Divinity School. Where Sir, you shall meet one who is so great a lover of truth, that if you can convince me for being all this while in an Errour, I shall think my self indeed, a gainer by this conflict. And no longer stile my self the defender of the Sermon against False Prophets, but one, who for being confuted by you ought to remain From my Chamber, Feb. 4. 1646. Your Affectionate friend and Servant, J•SPE• MAYNE.
nor shall we I hope, bring any with us from the Divinity School. Where Sir, you shall meet one who is so great a lover of truth, that if you can convince me for being all this while in an Error, I shall think my self indeed, a gainer by this conflict. And no longer style my self the defender of the Sermon against False prophets, but one, who for being confuted by you ought to remain From my Chamber, Feb. 4. 1646. Your Affectionate friend and Servant, J•SPE• MAYNE.
or what Catastrophe did sh•• up the conflict between us, which had so much busie Epitasi• and expectation in it, I could wish Master Cheynell himself were the Historian. Nevertheless, none will have reason to thinke me partiall or unfaithfull in my Report, having not only Master Wilkinson, if I deliver false story, but the Doctor of the Chaire to disprove, and contradict me.
or what Catastrophe did sh•• up the conflict between us, which had so much busy Epitasi• and expectation in it, I could wish Master Cheynell himself were the Historian. Nevertheless, none will have reason to think me partial or unfaithful in my Report, having not only Master Wilkinson, if I deliver false story, but the Doctor of the Chair to disprove, and contradict me.
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At whose lodging in Christ-church when we met, First, with a prudence becoming the gravity of his person, and the Dignity of his pl••e, he told us, that he could not think it fit to fit moderatour to any disputation which was not either preformâ, and conduced to the taking of a degree, or pro T••mi••, which is a Di•••ity exercise, at which the Ʋniversity Statutes require his presence in the chaire. Next,
At whose lodging in Christchurch when we met, First, with a prudence becoming the gravity of his person, and the Dignity of his pl••e, he told us, that he could not think it fit to fit moderator to any disputation which was not either preformâ, and conduced to the taking of a degree, or Pro T••mi••, which is a Di•••ity exercise, At which the Ʋniversity Statutes require his presence in the chair. Next,
if we resolved to meet in the Schools without a moderatour, his advice was, that Master Cheynell should have his scribe and I mine, to write down faithfully his Arguments and my Replyes: which thus taken and compared, would not be so liable to the variations of report, as when the eares and memories of the h•••ers are their only Register.
if we resolved to meet in the Schools without a moderator, his Advice was, that Master Cheynell should have his scribe and I mine, to write down faithfully his Arguments and my Replies: which thus taken and compared, would not be so liable to the variations of report, as when the ears and memories of the h•••ers Are their only Register.
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There remained but one difficulty, which was, how to make us agree upon questions fit to be disputed in such a publike way. M. Cheynell utterly refused Mine, and the Doctor of the Chaire thought it no way reasonable, that in the dangerous attire they wore, I should accept of his; especially the first: Which upon M. Cheynells unlocking of the full extent and meaning of the termes, revealed it self to be a kinde of Trojan horse; consecrated indeed to Pallas without,
There remained but one difficulty, which was, how to make us agree upon questions fit to be disputed in such a public Way. M. Cheynell utterly refused Mine, and the Doctor of the Chair Thought it no Way reasonable, that in the dangerous attire they wore, I should accept of his; especially the First: Which upon M. Cheynells unlocking of the full extent and meaning of the terms, revealed it self to be a kind of Trojan horse; consecrated indeed to Pallas without,
For, besides the Words Missall, Breviary, and Pontificall (against which I before gave in my exceptions ) by A pr••••is decerpta, popido { que }, obtrufa, Master Cheynell said, he not only meant those parts of our English Lyturgie which have been borrowed from the Church of Rome, but the Scotch Lyturgie too,
For, beside the Words Missal, Breviary, and Pontifical (against which I before gave in my exceptions) by A pr••••is decerpta, popido { que }, obtrufa, Master Cheynell said, he not only meant those parts of our English Liturgy which have been borrowed from the Church of Room, but the Scotch Liturgy too,
as it was imposed upon that Nation by the Sword. Which, though it were a mistake in him to say it was imposed by the sword, (since the date of the reception of it in that Church was the year 1637. At which time the Sword of both Nations lodged peaceably in the Scabberd ) and though upon the perusall of it since, E••nde it the same in all points with ours,
as it was imposed upon that nation by the Sword. Which, though it were a mistake in him to say it was imposed by the sword, (since the date of the reception of it in that Church was the year 1637. At which time the Sword of both nations lodged peaceably in the Scabbard) and though upon the perusal of it since, E••nde it the same in all points with ours,
but only in the contraction of the forme of the Administration of the L•rds Supper, and so for the matter of it as defensible as ours, yee having been turned out of that Kingdome, and Church as solemnly as it was at first introduced, that is, by an Act of Parliament; To whose birth the King and Houses concurred,
but only in the contraction of the Form of the Administration of the L•rds Supper, and so for the matter of it as defensible as ours, ye having been turned out of that Kingdom, and Church as solemnly as it was At First introduced, that is, by an Act of Parliament; To whose birth the King and Houses concurred,
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for me to have disputed publiquely for the second reception of it, had been the way not only to raise a Northern Army of men against my self, (who would, doubtless, have thought it a very bold piece of insolence in me to disallow in a publique dispute, the proceedings of a whole State ) but of such Northerne Women too, whose zeale upon the first reading of that innocent Lyturgie, mistook it for the Mass booke, and thereupon converted their Joynt-stools, upon which they sate, into Weapons, with which they invaded the Reader, and chaced him, with his Newborn Popery in his hand, out of the Church. These Reasons being layed to those other, which in my last letter but one, produced to shew how scandalous,
for me to have disputed publicly for the second reception of it, had been the Way not only to raise a Northern Army of men against my self, (who would, doubtless, have Thought it a very bold piece of insolence in me to disallow in a public dispute, the proceedings of a Whole State) but of such Northern Women too, whose zeal upon the First reading of that innocent Liturgy, mistook it for the Mass book, and thereupon converted their Joint-stools, upon which they sat, into Weapons, with which they invaded the Reader, and chased him, with his Newborn Popery in his hand, out of the Church. These Reasons being laid to those other, which in my last Letter but one, produced to show how scandalous,
as well as unsafe, it would in all likelyhood, prove both to the Ʋniversity and my self, if I should publiquely maintaine a question which carryed so much danger with it, I prest M. Cheynell with the intimation which he gave me in his last letter, which was, to stand to that frame of Questions which the Doctor of the Chaire should contrive for us.
as well as unsafe, it would in all likelihood, prove both to the Ʋniversity and my self, if I should publicly maintain a question which carried so much danger with it, I pressed M. Cheynell with the intimation which he gave me in his last Letter, which was, to stand to that frame of Questions which the Doctor of the Chair should contrive for us.
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To whose Ordering of the terme of his first Question if he would submit, I promised him to accept of his other t••, (th•• 〈 ◊ 〉 in the D••t•• 〈 ◊ 〉 the Chaires opinion, the termes of his third Question were something hard) in th••• 〈 ◊ 〉 •orm• into which he ••d •ast them.
To whose Ordering of the term of his First Question if he would submit, I promised him to accept of his other t••, (th•• 〈 ◊ 〉 in the D••t•• 〈 ◊ 〉 the Chairs opinion, the terms of his third Question were something heard) in th••• 〈 ◊ 〉 •orm• into which he ••d •ast them.
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To this his reply was, that after the Words p•pulo obtrusa, in his first Question, he would allow me to insert these two words of Mitigation, ut fertur. Whereto my answer was, that this addition would so litle deserve the name of a Mitigation, that it very much increast my burthen,
To this his reply was, that After the Words p•pulo obtrusa, in his First Question, he would allow me to insert these two words of Mitigation, ut fertur. Whereto my answer was, that this addition would so little deserve the name of a Mitigation, that it very much increased my burden,
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Since hereby I obliged my self, not only to stand up for the Re-admission of the Scotch Lyturgie; which could not be done without an affront offered to the Act of State that banisht it,
Since hereby I obliged my self, not only to stand up for the Readmission of the Scotch Liturgy; which could not be done without an affront offered to the Act of State that banished it,
but for the Justification of all the unknown practices of the Prelates, who had the contrivance of that Lyturgie, against the Sinister reports, and Calumnies of the incensed people. Who,
but for the Justification of all the unknown practices of the Prelates, who had the contrivance of that Liturgy, against the Sinister reports, and Calumnies of the incensed people. Who,
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as for some yeares, they have been falsely taught to thinke the Order of Bishops Antichristian, so looking upon their persons through the mist cast by some False Prophets before their eyes, it ought to be no wonder if their best Actions have seemed Popery. The Conclusion of all was this.
as for Some Years, they have been falsely taught to think the Order of Bishops Antichristian, so looking upon their Persons through the missed cast by Some False prophets before their eyes, it ought to be no wonder if their best Actions have seemed Popery. The Conclusion of all was this.
Imago nos tantism•t memoriale excitat uti Jesuitae passim. Dico non esse tam certum in Ecclesiâ an sint faciendae imagenes Dei, sive Trin•tatis, q•â Ch••sti & sancto is hoc •nim ad sidem •ertin•t, tilud e•t in opi•one. B•lla. deim g l. 2 c. 8 J•animata sp•ritualem quandam virt••em exconsecratione adipiscuntu•, &c. Tho. p. 3. q. 83. art 3. Deum imaginibus inhabitantè colunt, Deum cut•m virtu•e •stam sp•••tua•• ret••he•e alquando sive ••••be es•t•n•m. Casetanus hac in re•nc Gentilibus quidem sanientio• hab•tur.
Imago nos tantism•t memorial excitat uti Jesuitae passim. Dico non esse tam certum in Ecclesiâ an sint faciendae imagenes Dei, sive Trin•tatis, q•â Ch••sti & sancto is hoc •nim ad sidem •ertin•t, tilud e•t in opi•one. B•lla. deim g l. 2 c. 8 J•animata sp•ritualem quandam virt••em exconsecratione adipiscuntu•, etc. Tho. p. 3. q. 83. art 3. God imaginibus inhabitantè colunt, God cut•m virtu•e •stam sp•••tua•• ret••he•e alquando sive ••••be es•t•n•m. Casetanus hac in re•nc Gentiles quidem sanientio• hab•tur.
